Dr. Kimberly Macuare: The Dali and Visual Thinking Strategies
Dr. Kimberly Macuare, Co-Director of Innovation Labs at The Dalí, is an experienced educator, curriculum designer and writer. In her role as the lead program designer and facilitator for the Innovation Labs, she has helped many organizations—from non-profits to government entities to Fortune 100 companies—build their innovation capacities by developing creativity-focused mindsets and problem-solving skills. She has extensive experience in both arts-based methods, such as Visual Thinking Strategies, and creativity-focused precesses and frameworks, including Creative Problem Solving, design thinking, FourSight, and LEGO® Serious Play®. Deeply engaged in innovation culture, she has taught courses on creativity and innovation, designed innovative educational programming, and interviewed and written about some of the greatest innovators and innovations of the modern era. She holds a BA in English from the University of Cincinnati, an MA in English from The Ohio State University and a PhD in English with a specialization in medieval literature and economics from The Ohio State University.
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[ Introduction ]
Welcome to the Strategic Play Podcast. Unlock Your creativity, expand your mind, and have good clean fun with Strategic Play founder and LEGO® Serious Play® Master Trainer, Jacquie Lloyd Smith, and creative force and curious mind, Mark Millhone.
Mark:
Hello, Jacquie.
Jacquie:
Hello, Mark.
Mark:
I know you're really looking forward to this conversation. Tell me why you're so excited.
Jacquie:
This is going to be one of my favorite podcasts, I'm sure, because today we're going to dive into two of my very favorite topics, which are play and art. And we have a very interesting guest that is going to give us some amazing insights on the work that she does.
Mark:
It would be hard to imagine a better guide for this process. Dr. Kimberly Macuare is Co-Director of Innovation Labs at the Dalí; is an experienced educator, curriculum designer, and writer. In her role as the lead program designer and facilitator for the Innovation Labs, she has helped many organizations, from nonprofits to government entities to Fortune 100 companies, build their innovation capacities. She has extensive experience in art space methods, such as Visual Thinking Strategies, design thinking, also FourSight and Lego Serious Play. Deeply engaged in innovation culture, she has taught courses on creativity and innovation, designed innovative educational programming, and interviewed and written about some of the greatest innovators and innovations of the modern era. She holds a BA in English from the University of Cincinnati, an MA in English from The Ohio State University, and a PhD in English with a specialization in medieval literature and economics from The Ohio State University.
Jacquie:
She is definitely a fascinating person. And I just love speaking with her. She is just one of these deeper thinkers that we all benefit from a conversation with. Let's dig into it.
[ Interview ]
Mark:
Kim, welcome to the Strategic Play Podcast. Or is it Dr. Kim or Dr. Macuare? How would you like us to refer to you?
Kim:
Hi, Mark. Hi, Jacquie. I'm so happy to be here. Kim is fine. I feel like I always make a joke: I'm a recovering academic. And so I've kind of left the doctor behind at this point, so Kim is good.
Mark:
Excellent. Well, it's great to be speaking with you, Kim. So, Jacquie, to kick us off, would you share with us the prompt that you gave Kim for the model that she made?
Jacquie:
Absolutely. Well, Kim and I have been playing together for a while now. So she knows how this Lego Serious Play works. And I simply said, I think her job is so interesting at the Dalí. And my prompt, I believe, was: Could you build a model that would tell us more about the work you do at the Dalí?
Kim:
Absolutely.
Jacquie:
All right. And so we have a model. Mark, do you want to go through the picture of the of the model for the listeners?
Mark:
Sure. I'll just kind of give a very basic description of it. And then we can dive into it. What we're looking at is a couple of people that are joined by one of those flexible, red connectors, brain-to-brain. I love that symbol for this kind of connection; and there’s just an understanding. And they are—one of them looks like they've got a shovel in one hand. They're looking at a framed piece of—maybe it looks like a painting or a piece of framed art. There's someone standing in front of that. And then there's also someone standing to the side, wearing kind of a top hat, underneath a palm tree. There's a flamingo.
It looks like a great place. I want to go to this place.
Am I capturing—oh, there's—this is interesting. On the floor, I'm seeing at one of the other angles. There's a tile that says “gold mine” underneath the piece of art, or what I'm interpreting as a piece of art.
All right. Tell me if that's capturing the core details for you, and if there's any other things you'd like to just make sure are in the listeners’ mind as they're listening to our conversation?
Kim:
Yes. That's awesome. I think that you did a very amazing job. So I think, also, I tried to give a little bit of the idea of—if you've never been to our museum, I did a little mini version of the museum off to the side with some things that are kind of symbolic of its geographical location, as well. And then of course, the really important action is happening over there to the right, as you notice, with the people looking at the work of art. And then I am the little person in the front, closest to the frame.
Jacquie:
I think you know—I just want to jump in. It's so interesting, because I have been to the Dalí. I know where—I have a good idea, I think, what Kim is up to. But it's interesting, Mark, to hear you walk through it. And already, you can start seeing meaning in the pieces of the Lego bricks, which is exactly how this method works. So maybe come—I'll jump in and ask you a couple of questions. So where are you in the model?
Kim:
So I am the little Minifigure with the ponytail that is standing closest to the frame. And I am holding a magnifying glass in one hand, and I'm holding a walkie talkie in the other. And those tools are supposed to symbolize, I think, what I'm trying to bring to the table when I have a group or a team or an organization come into the museum. I'm trying to hold up different lenses to help them see and solve problems differently. And I'm trying to lean into all of my best communication abilities to make that happen.
Jacquie:
All right. Maybe we should step back a little bit and have you tell us something about the Dali. Why don't we start there? And then we'll dive into the Lego. Maybe just tell us a little bit about the Dali Art Museum, if you could.
Kim:
Absolutely. So the Dali Museum, in St. Pete Florida, is really the premier collection of Dalí’s works outside of his own museum, in Spain. And those pieces were collected by a couple, A. Reynolds and Eleanor Morse. And then they donated that collection to the city of St. Pete, and I work at the museum. And obviously we serve a lot of different audiences, and education is at the center of our mission. But several years ago, we started to think: How might we serve different audiences, audiences that aren't traditionally served by art museums? And we really thought that we had something to add to the creativity and innovation conversation, especially for businesses and organizations that were really accustomed and facile with their analytical and critical thinking, but didn't feel as confident with their creative thinking. And so we're trying to leverage a little bit of Dalí's really premier, creative abilities and his ways of seeing the world differently to help organizations.
Jacquie:
Okay. And then maybe we should have you tell us a little bit more about your role. And then we can dive into the how the art, I don't know whether you want to add that part to it. But it would be interesting to hear, like, how—what is it that you're doing and how are you interacting with the art?
Kim:
Yes. So I am the lead designer and facilitator for all of the workshops, gallery experiences, and programs that we run through the Innovation Labs. And really, the art plays a role in almost really everything we do. But just to give you a couple of quick examples. So one of the things that I really love to do is I really love to lead teams through our galleries. And we are really using the art very directly as push off points for having conversations about—let's say, give the example of: How does changing your perspective change the possibilities? Because this is something that Dalí was really phenomenal at. And we have this one really amazing painting in the gallery, where when you're standing right in front of the painting, you see one image, which is a picture of Dalí's wife. And then when you're standing 20 meters away, you see a completely different image. Like the image of his wife has disappeared, and you now see a portrait of Abraham Lincoln. And standing in front of that artwork and seeing that almost magical
transformation is a lightbulb moment for people as to how what we're able to understand and perceive and see as possible in any given moment, is very connected to where we're standing. And that opens up all kinds of really interesting conversations for the team.
Jacquie:
Around—all around framing, and I guess perspective taking.
Kim:
Absolutely.
Jacquie:
Interesting. Okay. Let's go back to the Lego for a minute, and then we can we can talk a bit more about that. So in in the Lego build, you have these two people that have this bendy red piece between their heads. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?
Kim:
Yes. I think when I was imagining the attendees for this workshop—and that's these two figures, these two Minifigures are supposed to represent attendees at this workshop, this gallery experience—I wanted to think about, what would be the benefits? What would be my ideal for these two people to—what did they experience? What are they taking away? What's changed for them? And the red connector is really that they now have both a better connection to each other. So there's been an element of team building. But because it's head to head, they also just have a deeper understanding and empathy and respect for each other and the way they think. And then the different tools, one has a shovel and one has a paddle. They're taking away new tools. And then the one figure has actually a double face. And so multiple perspective taking and then they both have glasses on. And so kind of trying to see with new eyes.
Jacquie:
All right. And you look like, in the model, like you're standing on something that perhaps swivels.
Kim:
Yes. I wanted to put that in there. Because I feel any facilitator—I feel like for any facilitator, this is true.
I think that you always have to be nimble and flexible and be ready to adapt to anything that comes up. Because in any given workshop or engagement, there's always that element of the unknown. And so you have to be able to swivel and pivot in order to meet that challenge.
Jacquie:
And then maybe let's jump to the other side of the model, where we've got maybe some things that represent the physical location, which I think is also interesting. Can you tell us about the palm tree and
the flamingo and the dome?
Kim:
Yes. Absolutely. So the physical location of the museum is very beautiful. We're right along the water.
And that blue plate represents the water location. And then, of course, there are lots of beautiful palm trees. We’re in a tropical region. I also have some flowers there. And then there's lots of birds. We do have—St. Pete does have a very famous set of gardens where there are some quite famous little flamingos that hang out, and so I put that there. And then our museum is a concrete rectangle topped with a geodesic dome. And I didn't have the perfect dome to represent ours, because our geodesic structure is not a perfect dome. It looks like it's melting, as you might expect from Dali. It's a little off the wall. And then I did put this Minifigure right next to it to represent Dalí, wearing a mustache and, of course, a little top hat, because he was quite the dandy. And then he's carrying a flame, and I kind of meant that to represent both his paintbrush but also represent the legacy that he has had for—certainly for us, as a museum.
Jacquie:
Wonderful. Okay. Let's talk a little bit—because Kim, you and I've had some conversations about play. And maybe, let's connect this idea of play and the Dali Museum and also Dali himself. So what can you tell us about the connections there?
Kim:
Absolutely. I think that, obviously, whenever you're working with companies and organizations, play, as you know well, it's sometimes a difficult sell at the beginning. Because people often think about playing as being tangential or making them kind of deviate from their focus. And what I try to do is really focus on that idea that play is fuel for creativity. If you don't give yourself that free rein, you really can't then come up with those ideas that are really going to be life changing, both for yourself and for your business. And I think Dali is a perfect example of someone who leaned heavily into play.
Right now, we have an exhibit up. It's called Dali’s Drawings. And it's really interesting because they're not the finished oil paintings that most people are accustomed to seeing. Like if you know Persistence of Memory, the melting clock painting, for example. There are drawings. And so what we're seeing more is an entrance into Dali's thought processes and his ways of being, instead of these finished products. And there's one that I think really speaks to this conversation, it's called Seven Flies (and a Model). And Dali went into his studio one day, and there was a piece of paper and it had a smashed fly on it. And most people would throw the paper away. I mean, that's the normal, logical thing to do. But Dali decided to play. And he actually took this paper and he drew seven Trompe-l'œil flies. So he drew them in a very photorealistic way so that you wouldn't be able to tell which was the real fly and which were the seven that he had drawn.
Jacquie:
Like on that same piece of paper?
Kim:
On that same piece of paper. So when you're looking at it, it's really impossible to tell with the eye like, which one is which. And that's just a very Dali thing to do. That's a very playful. It's—honestly, when I think about that episode, I ask myself, who else would do something like that? Like, no one. Literally.
Jacquie:
I know, the first thought you have is, “Oh, a dead fly on paper. Yuck.”
Kim:
Exactly. But then he submitted this into an art show.
Jacquie:
Yes. Fascinating.
Kim:
He took his play seriously.
Jacquie:
Well, there are lots of pictures of him where he is so playful, even in the photographs of people, like he kind of teases himself. And I think that's so interesting, because it just gives you an insight into, although I never met him, I have seen these portraits of him where he's making funny faces. Really.
Kim:
Absolutely. I mean, he was, honestly, a real showman. And he—I think that he tried to get this balance, right? Because here on the one hand, you have this guy who clearly has an ego. I mean, the first thing many people will tell you is that he thought very highly of himself as a painter and as a thinker. But he really balanced that with not taking himself very seriously, with sticking out his tongue, with putting flowers in his mustache, with standing on his head. I mean, he would do any kind of antics, walking around with an ocelot on a leash.
So he really—I think he knew how to balance those two aspects of himself, the kind of serious person and then also this more playful iteration. And by kind of balancing those two, I think that's really what got him the results that he was able to get.
Jacquie:
Mark, I thought maybe I heard you take a breath. Were you going to say something?
Mark:
Well, I just—I love the view that you're giving us into the process for this artist's thought and also the inspiration that, that provides to people. One thing which I found really striking about your model was the connection between the two viewers. I think that when I think about going to a museum, I most oftentimes think of it as sort of a communion between myself and the artist. But I think you really bring out an important point in that if I and a friend come to a piece of art together, or I and a stranger come to a piece of art together, and we are touched by this creative aesthetic provocation, if we're talking about Dali, because they are all just so like playfully provocative. Then that's a shared aesthetic experience that we've had together. And that actually connects us not just to Dali and his work, but connects us to each other.
Kim:
Absolutely.
Mark:
I just thought that was just an insight that I hadn't thought before, which the model revealed for me.
Jacquie:
And I think that interestingly, this is maybe, Kim, why you became interested in the Lego Serious Play, is because it also has that element of using a way to discuss something at a different level and revealing oneself, perhaps, to another.
Kim:
Absolutely. I think that one of the things that I always want to make sure that people understand when they come to the museum is I'm not bringing teams to the museum, because everybody's going to come out being an artist. The point is not for everybody to come out painting or drawing. But I do think that people need to understand that art is more than just a leisure experience, that art actually has its own way of thinking, that art is a thinking process. Like as you look at an image, there is thinking going on. And the kind of thinking that's going on is something that can be then leveraged for other things. And that goes for looking at art. Or as Mark mentioned, as you're sharing this experience with someone else, maybe speaking about that art, thinking about different art styles or modalities. For example, radical juxtaposition, which is a real key technique of creativity. That was a surrealist staple. And then also making, the act of creating. And that's where I think Lego Serious Play has been so meaningful for my own work at the museum, is it really gives people that opportunity to create and to use the language of visuals, as an artist does with all of the attendant symbolism and layers of meaning in order for them to communicate with each other and really get to those deeper insights.
Jacquie:
Yes. It's really fascinating. I think that, if I could, I would love to talk a little bit. I had the pleasure, this summer, of attending one of Kim’s sessions. Maybe Kim, I won't say any more. I'm just going to say that it was a powerful experience. I loved every second of it. Maybe Kim, could you talk a little bit about
about the Visual Thinking Strategies that you've been using, and maybe just talk a little bit about how that works?
Kim:
Absolutely. I love Visual Thinking Strategies. It's one of my favorite—it's one of my favorite techniques. So this is thinking more about the talking about art side. So we've talked a little bit about the looking at art and gestured toward the making through Lego bricks. But now I want to talk a little bit about talking about art. So Visual Thinking Strategies is a museum technique that allows a facilitator to facilitate a conversation about a piece. But because it's a very controlled technique, it is pushing the people who are speaking into a longer tolerance for ambiguity, and putting off kind of dialing down on a meaning. And in doing so, it's really pushing them to observe more and sharpen those observation skills. And so it's really around three questions. The facilitator gives everyone a minute to look at an image. But if you're thinking about how this might be applied, otherwise, it could also be a text, it could be an advertisement, a photograph. Really, it’s limitless how you could use it. After people have looked at it, you say, “What's going on?” in this case, let's just say, picture, because I'm dealing a lot with pictures, “What's going on in this picture?” And people will start to give you some answers. So they might say, “Oh, these people are dancing.” And to that, as the facilitator, I might respond, “Okay. So you're noticing the figures, and looking at their behavior and their actions and thinking that they could be dancing.” And then I ask the second question of Visual Thinking Strategies, “What do you see that makes you say dancing?” And two things there, the conditional language, saying “could be,” “you perceive them as,” “they could possibly be” dancing, means that we defer meaning. And then, “What do you see that makes you say that?” forces them back into the role of observation. And then finally, when you're ready to move on to the next person, you’re like, “What more can we find?”
And you can unroll, in about 10 or 15 minutes, a very deep and insightful conversation about a piece where people aren't leaning on what they can Google about the piece or what they can read in a book about it but what they can glean from their ever sharpening observations, in concert with other people, about the piece.
Jacquie:
Wonderful. So you really take people into the art by asking these questions. So the first one was, “What's going on in this art?” And then the second one is, so then you reflect back after they say, “Well dancing.” So then you're asking them for more observation, when you use your language of “could be” is a possible. Is it possible that or it could be that gets them to start thinking more open about the piece? Is that—so is that what I'm hearing?
Kim:
Yes. Absolutely. I think that there's always—whatever we're looking at around us, there's always this pool of observable reality around us at any given time. And all of us are always selecting from that pool of observations. And we're inferring things about our observations and we're making meaning and then moving to assumptions. And that process, what Visual Thinking Strategies does, is it slows that process down so that we don't jump from what we see to assumption. And we put our thoughts into dialogue with the other people that we're observing with, and we start to see that they didn't make the same observations that we did. These are completely different things. And that really opens up a lot of interesting possibilities.
Mark:
That's just a fascinating perspective to bring to learning and education. I mean, I think that as an educator in an increasingly hybridized learning space, there can be a leaning on learning modules, sort of prepackaged learning. And some of them are really beautifully created and share information in really media-rich ways that are engaging. But what I don't see is this focus on how we see and looking at how we make meaning and slowing down enough to observe that process within ourselves. And it seems like such a vital and important thing, where you're living in a world which is increasingly disrupted, where the received meetings of any culture are up for revision at any moment. And so kind of a primary competency must be an awareness of awareness, of perception of perception, and the meaning that we make from things and a willingness to be in that delicious ambiguity of what something is before gesturing towards what it might mean.
Kim:
Absolutely. I couldn't have said that better myself, Mark.
Jacquie:
Good job we have the recorder going, hey? Thanks, Mark.
Mark:
It’s easy when you’re inspired and talking to inspiring people.
Kim:
Yes. I love how you say that. Because I feel we have all of these amazing frameworks and paradigms. Just think of something like design thinking. Design thinking starts with that empathy piece, right, which is focused a lot on observation. But when and how are we taught—let's put aside the tools of, hey, go out and observe people—but when are we taught the tools of how to observe or how to understand our acts of observation and our selecting of data are not neutral? We're selecting data because of our own backgrounds, our own experiences. And it's only when I put my voice in concert with other teammates whose perspectives and experiences are different than mine, that I can start to get something that approximates a fuller picture. I hate to say the full picture ever, but a fuller picture.
Jacquie:
Well, I think that what I think is so fascinating about this process is that you're inviting people to think about how they think about things and even break that thinking down into past experiences that have then shaped their perspective or how they form opinions in the beginning. And so by kind of using the art, which is just—I just think this is amazingly fascinating. I love it, every minute of it. It seems like then people realize, “Oh, it's not just about the art. It's actually about me. It's about me and my relationship with the art and how I'm processing what I'm seeing.” And then, as you said, in concert with others. So then I'm listening to what other people are saying and I'm thinking, “Oh, I didn't see that,” or, “That's interesting. I never saw it that way before. ” And so we just don't take enough time to do that. I think we live in a society where we're fed information very quickly. And I think, Kim, you made the point about how quickly people look at a piece of art. It's not very long. I was in Italy and I was listening to another professor there talk about putting a piece of art up on the screen and having students look at it for a minute. And they became uncomfortable. And I think you said something along those lines too, Kim, about how long people look at art.
Kim:
Yes. There's been a lot of studies on this, of course, in the museum world. And they're pretty much all are around the same. And I always find the—for me, the mode number is, the frequency number, is the most interesting. And that one's at 10 seconds.
Jacquie:
Ten seconds. Ten seconds. If you think about how long it took somebody to produce that piece of art, the viewer looks at it for 10 seconds. It's almost mind blowing when you think about that.
Kim:
Yes. But it's very—I think it's also, it's interesting to me because I think, given the world that we're living in, and we were talking about earlier about play. I mean, one of the reasons that play is seen as kind of a distraction, I think, by some people is because we're so focused on productivity and efficiency and getting as much done as possible.
And so I think that, that 10 seconds is really analogous to a lot of the things that we look at every day that we claim that we saw. And I would challenge people to differentiate between looking and seeing, and I think that seeing is a much deeper activity. And we spend most of our time looking, because that's kind of what moves us along at the pace that we feel we need to move along at.
Jacquie:
Mm-hmm. Yes. So maybe—could you tell us a little bit—I know that even actually Kim, prior to you being at the Dalí I had come to the Dalí, and did some work with, I think they were all mayors of Florida. That was the group that were in and we did some Lego with them. But I'm just wondering, can you talk a little bit about the people that do come and do these kinds of workshops with you? And do they call you or is it a friend told a friend. Like, how does that part work? Because you're bringing them in to do something that's so different. I'm just wondering how—what does the invitation look like?
Kim:
Sure. So I think I would say that I would have a very hard time defining a type of client, because I feel like I've had a very wide range, wider, just because of the reasons that you've just stated, wider than I might have thought, just because it is very unique. And I sometimes think that people, they drift more towards the familiar. But I mean, I've worked with everyone from Fortune 500 companies to small local nonprofits, and industries from manufacturing and finance, through industries that you might typically term—I hate when people say the creative industries, but you know that people might specifically term as creative, like marketing or design.
What I find, though, is that clients are coming to me for different reasons. So I might get in a team who is from finance or from pharmacy, and they might be looking for those tools that would really help them institute creative thinking more forcibly in what they do, because they feel like that maybe is a lack that they might have. Whereas, when I get in a marketing or a design team, they're often looking for a jolt or a reset for their creativity. And so I feel like it's different clients are asking for different things, and people come to us through different pathways. I mean, but I’ve seen a lot of word of mouth.
Jacquie:
Well, I can see how all of Dalí’s work could be inspirational, no matter banking, finance, or even in the highly creative fields, because he's got to be sort of off the chart when it comes to a creative thinker. So I could just see how it would be inspirational for any group and people that have never maybe seen his art before would.
It's really an invitation into a whole different world. So I could—I can just see how powerful these workshops are. And I also have to say how beautiful the space is that you have. It is just, the building itself is a piece of art. I don't know who it was that was behind sort of designing the facility, but it is absolutely gorgeous. And it—just being there, it makes you feel more creative.
Kim:
Yes. Absolutely. The architect, his name is Jan Weymouth, and he had previously worked with I.M. Pei. And so I think you can definitely see that intellectual heritage in the building. And certainly, our executive director, Hank Hine, who was in charge when this building was being conceived and built, also certainly contributed important intellectual thought towards how the building's physical presence should Interact with the collection that was contained within.
Jacquie:
Mm-hmm. Fascinating. I actually went to the very first—before you were in that building, I was in Florida and I went to the old building, which was right on the, I wouldn't say—call it the docks. I don't know what the location was. But it was like a long, skinny, thin building. And to see it go from where it was to where it is now is really just so wonderful. Just amazing.
Kim:
Yes. The old building was part of the USF St. Petersburg campus, and it was right there on the water. And especially given our current situation with a hurricane bearing down, I'm really glad the art is not there anymore and it's inside a building that was built specifically to withstand these kinds of conditions.
Jacquie:
Well, wonderful. And I think we should maybe just put a plug in for our plans. So we have been—the Strategic Play team have been at the Dalí before, doing a Lego Serious Play training and also a workshop. And then Kim, you have been up to Whistler and taken our advanced Lego training. So we've kind of been hanging around for a while now. And we had this idea that perhaps we could do something together. So Strategic Play and the Dalí are going to work together to put on an event in 2024.
Kim:
Yay. I’m super excited.
Jacquie:
Yes. No, it'll be totally fun. So it's going to—we're cooking something up, which we will let the community know about as soon as we have our final plans. But it will be probably a week-long event, but it will include our very popular Playing with Professors, which Kim will be one of the speakers. And so stay tuned, everyone. Because that is coming up. And I think that, that'll be a really amazing time that we'll be able to not just play together, but also be exposed to some of these things we're talking about that are in the museum, meet Kim in person, and maybe we can do some of this Visual Thinking Strategies as part of a breakout. So we'll definitely have lots of fun, fun play art activities planned.
Kim:
Yes. Absolutely. And I think that for Lego Serious Play facilitators, working in visuals comes naturally because it is what you do with the bricks. And I think that just coming in and kind of looking at the art, and I think it'll just add another layer onto that and really build on—what you've already understood innately with the LEGO Serious Play methodology is that many times when you try to come at a topic too directly, too head on, people's preconceptions and beliefs about the way things are can block their vision. But when you come at it obliquely, it allows them to take a completely different perspective and to see things differently. And that can be with their Lego Serious Play model, and that can be with a piece of art.
Jacquie:
Mm-hmm. Well, I liked when you first started talking about the visual thinking and you said, “Well, it could be anything, but I'll use a painting.” I mean, it could also be a statue and it could be a three dimensional Lego—I'm just thinking like a shared model, to use Visual Thinking Strategies. As people look at a shared model that could be a really interesting way to process that information as well and in a new way. So, yes. I think it's really exciting. And I'm just going to say one thing about play and art here, if I may. So as an art and play therapist, play is definitely the underpinning. I mean, our company is called Strategic Play. It's all about play. But really, Lego Serious Play in so many ways is really more about art, because it's the constructing, the building, the making, and then using it to tell a story, which is what we do in art. So the art part of it, I think there's a very, very—a really close tie there that is super interesting. And I'm really looking forward to exploring it at a deeper level in Florida.
Kim:
Me too. In the winter in Florida. Yay!
Jacquie:
Yes. It'll either be in—it'll be during a month when the weather isn't that great in the Northern United States and Canada. I'll just put it that way. So we're—we haven't drilled the date yet, but we will.
Mark:
Excellent. Well I can’t wait to hear about it. One thing which I was just struck about the model, maybe just as a thought, because we are getting near the end, to wrap up, is that in terms of what you were saying, Kim, about coming at things a little bit sideways and sort of opening up people’s perceptions by doing that. I think that perhaps going into this conversation. I mean, I was thinking about Salvador Dalí is this giant of the artworld. And I think of museums as these very—almost like churches to an artist, especially when it’s all around one artist’s work. But when I was looking at your model, it just sort of, maybe is an accident of scale, but I think that this is part of what the Lego Serious Play process invites us to do is to kind of look at the model. And what I notice is that this giant of an artist is actually relatively small in the model. What’s actually much more focused upon and larger and more prominent is this act of seeing an interpretation and a reflection that’s going on between the people who are engaging with the art in this playful, creative way. So I’m really excited to learn more about the work that you’re doing with visual signs and systems and engagements and processes to help us become more alive to the visual world.
Kim:
I think that Dali would agree with you. He—one of his quotes that we can—as we're moving towards the end, would respond to that. Dali said. “Knowing how to look is a way of creating.”
Jacquie:
Wonderful. I also think that he is a master of the brand. He just has done—so from a corporate point of view, people that are very interested in thinking about how all of these pieces fit together. I invite you to go on the Dalí website and have a look around, if you're listening to this podcast and you're curious, because there's lots of interesting things there. And Kim, we should ask people if they're interested in getting a hold of you. Is LinkedIn the best way to connect with you?
Kim:
Yes. They can definitely reach out to me via LinkedIn. Or you can always shoot me an email, I'm pretty responsive, at kmacuare@thedali.org.
Jacquie:
Wonderful. All right. Well, thank you so much for giving us the gift of your time.
Kim:
It was absolutely my pleasure.
Mark:
Yes. Thank you so much, Kim. I learned a lot and I think it will affect not just how I see Dali’s art, but hopefully the rest of the world. So thank you so much.
[ Conclusion ]
Mark:
I so enjoyed this conversation with Dr. Kim Macuare. She really brought me a different perspective on Dali. I have always been aware of him as just a giant of an artist, bigger than life in terms of everything he did: his art, his vision, his imagination, his eccentricities. But in Kim’s reflection on it and how she uses that as really an invitation, a jumping off point to really look at how we look at things and how the act of seeing is itself a creative act. She really brought me into a different perspective on art and its purpose in our lives.
Jacquie:
Yes. It—I just think that Kim probably has one of the best jobs in the whole world. And she’s just a lovely, lovely person and is just so bright and insightful. And I enjoyed this conversation so much because I think it really allows us to think about how art could be playing a bigger role in the work that we do and in our lives in general. I think that her point about people going into art galleries and only looking at a piece of art for 10 seconds and then to think that you could be working with someone like Kim and have a facilitated session where you’re working with the same piece of art for 45 minutes to an hour or even longer. And just thinking of the experience that she’s taking people on. I just think it’s absolutely wonderful. So it was great to listen to her, even though we just scratched the surface on the work they’re doing at the Dali. I think it was just great to have people start to think about: What is it? What are they up to? How does this work?
Mark:
Yes. I think there’s a lot of creative inspiration and provocation in Dali’s work and the unique perspective that Kim is bringing to it. I’m betting that you’ve got a really live listener challenge, based upon such an inspiring guest. What are you thinking, this time?
Jacquie:
Well. Here’s what I’m thinking. I’m thinking that maybe I’ll put out one of two challenges. One could be something very simple, like maybe: What’s your favorite piece of art, and why? And maybe have people build something around that. Like what does that mean to you or how do you feel when you look at it? So something like that. Or you could do something around a piece of art has impacted you and brought around some kind of change in your life. So if you have seen a piece of art that has really made you think about yourself differently or if you have something that’s transformational you could perhaps go a little bit deeper. So the one might just be something simple like, here’s you looking at a piece of art. Why do you love it or what are you attracted to? And/or how has that art been transformational in your life? So if you want to build a small model and send us a photograph with a little blurb. If you’re listening to this podcast in our community, just go ahead and post right under the podcast. If you are listening to this podcast on our website or on some other forum, simply send us a picture and a short story to hello@strategicplay.com, because we would really love to hear from you.
Mark:
That sounds great. I can’t wait to see the creative—
Jacquie:
Processes?
Mark:
Yes. Processes, offerings, perspectives, that come back from such a fun prompt.
Jacquie:
Yes. And I think, too, I just want to remind everybody that we are going to be doing this joint project with the Dali, which will be the second one we’ve done. So stay tuned so that we can bring news from Dr. Kim and from Strategic Play so that we can give you some more information on what’s happening, when it’s happening, who’s coming, what we’re doing. But I can guarantee the weather will be amazing, because it’s Florida. And the Dali is just such a wonderful place to have an event like this that it will be expansive with infinite possibilities. So stay tuned.
Mark:
Sounds great. Well, as always, this is one of the brightest parts of my day, talking with you and the inspiration that comes from it.
Jacquie:
Aww.
Mark:
And so I look forward to next time.
Jacquie:
Thank you so much, Mark. It’s always fun chatting. It’s always fun hearing your insights and perspectives, as well. So thank you. Thank you very much for taking some time so that we could have some fun.
Mark:
Awesome. And thank you.
Jacquie:
All right. Until next time.
Mark:
Until next time.
[ Outtakes ]
Mark:
That was pretty darn good. Should we leave it?
Jacquie:
Sometimes being too perfect…
Mark:
Being too perfect isn’t a problem that I face very often in my life. But, yes. That’s why I avoid it so successfully.