Matthew Jones: Playing at Purdue University
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Matt Jones is a PhD student in Organizational Leadership at Purdue University, where he explores the intersection of creative problem-solving, cognitive diversity, agile strategy, and leadership training. As a recent Certified Master Facilitator in LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® methods, Matt's work combines play with serious strategic outcomes. Over the last eight years, he has taught a range of audiences from junior high Taiwanese exchange students to Silicon Slopes women founders, and even Mandela Washington Fellows—young African leaders backed by the U.S. State Department. He is a local business owner alongside his wife, and a dad of two girls (soon to be three!). If not playing with LEGO© bricks with his kids, you can find him in his backyard with his chickens.
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Contact Matt: jone1947@purdue.edu
Book suggestion: Amy Edmondson, Right Kind of Wrong: The Science of Failing Well
Podcast Transcript!
[ Introduction ]
Welcome to the Strategic Play Podcast. Unlock Your creativity, expand your mind, and have good clean fun with Strategic Play founder and LEGO® Serious Play® Master Trainer, Jacquie Lloyd Smith, and creative force and curious mind, Mark Millhone.
Mark:
Hello, Jacquie
Jacquie:
Hey, Mark. How are you?
Mark:
I'm great. And I'm really excited to share this podcast with Matt Jones. Tell us just a little bit about him and why you wanted to have him on the podcast.
Jacquie:
- Well, to say that he is enthusiastic about LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® and bringing play into work that he does would be an understatement. He's one of these up and coming next generation kind of guys because he is pushing the boundaries on how LEGO SERIOUS PLAY is used and really exploring different applications.
Mark:
Yes. He's a PhD student in organizational leadership at Purdue, where he explores the intersection of creative problem-solving, cognitive diversity, agile strategy, and leadership training. Just a really fascinating mix of ideas and, like you said, just tremendous enthusiasm. He's a recent certified Master Facilitator LEGO SERIOUS PLAY, and his work really combines play with serious strategic outcomes. And I think that's also reflected in just his educational and teaching background. Over the last eight years, he's taught a range of audiences from Taiwanese exchange students to Silicon Slopes, women founders, and even Mandela Washington Fellows—African leaders backed by the U.S. State Department. It's just a really fun, exciting mix of interests.
He's also a local business owner along with his wife. And he's the dad of two girls, soon to be three. And I love this. He says, if not playing with LEGO bricks with his kids, you can find them in his backyard with his chickens.
Jacquie:
And he is just a lovely person. So very excited to say hello to him today. So why don't we get started?
Mark:
Sounds great.
[ Interview ]
Mark:
Matt Jones, welcome to the Strategic Play Podcast.
Matt:
Yes, thank you very much. I'm grateful to be here.
Mark:
Jacquie, would you share with us the challenge that you gave to Matt, which was what he used to be inspired to make his model? And if you're listening, you can follow along with the picture of the model on the Strategic Play Podcast. Take it away, Jacquie.
Jacquie:
All right. We'll do a good job of describing this for us since we know that lots of people are just listening. So I asked Matt to build a model that would tell – maybe answer two questions. One is how do you use LEGO SERIOUS PLAY in the work that you do at Purdue? So that was question number one. And then I added, and maybe tell us something about why you really like this method. So that was the challenge and Matt built us a model and he sent us a photo.
So Matt, I'm going to ask you some questions about your model, if that's OK.
Matt:
Yes. That's great. Perfect. Fire away.
Jacquie:
All right. OK, so we have two. There's kind of two models here. Let's go to the one that has the person that has the – I see somebody sitting on some kind of a platform with a whole bunch of LEGO bricks and something coming out of their head. Tell us about that one.
Matt:
Yes. So these are people playing. Play is happening here. Originally, this was a person playing with a number of different toys. I don't know what they would be, but they're playing nonetheless. They're connected through play. So you have this black string that connects their minds. As they're playing together, their minds are becoming more united. They're becoming a more one together. But the platform that they're on is actually a rocket. You've got the – I tried to include some of the angles of a rocket. There's the fire underneath. Play is going to take them places.
Jacquie:
Okay, I wasn't expecting a rocket, but alright. And then what is the – can you tell, so those are toys on a table and they're on a rocket and what is the – so on the Minifigure that is leaning on the white, I guess, back of the rocket, he's got something coming out of his head. So what does that signify?
Matt:
Yes. So this connection somewhat signifies the power of play that as they're playing together, they're becoming more one in mind. They're aligning themselves through play, as play often does. It brings us together as people, it really is the – play is the great facilitator of interpersonal and interaction. This black connection is a somewhat symbol of the power of play and bringing our minds together and helping align our vision of where we want to go and what we want to do.
Jacquie:
All right, wonderful. OK, so next to that rocket ship. Now I know it's a rocket. There is a baseplate with some large Duplo, two white pieces of Duplo. And then there's a bunch of the clear Duplo, which kind of go up into an interesting tower with a yellow piece that goes up quite high with another looks like platform, with a bunch of yellow and a clear yellow pieces at the very top. What are you building there?
Matt:
Yes. So this is a lunar landscape because our rocket is taking us to this moon, if you will. And because we're talking about play at Purdue University, Purdue is the cradle of astronauts. 27 graduates have become astronauts and flown in space, including Neil Armstrong. The first man to walk on the moon was a Purdue graduate. So I felt some sense of some space coming out in my building. And so I wanted to have – this is somewhat like a, trying to embody a lunar or out of world landscape. And then, yes. This is where they want to go. At the very top of the tower, we have this little clear gold piece. That's their ultimate outcome that they want to achieve. But it takes a lot of climbing and you have to get there brick-by-brick. So there's some stairs involved in this and piece-by-piece. So the rocket's going to land on this and they're going to work together to achieve their goal.
Jacquie:
Excellent. Excellent. Okay. Well, that's an interesting fact about all the people coming out of Purdue that became astronauts. So in your – maybe tell us a little bit about the PhD work that you're doing. Maybe, I don't know, tell us a little bit about your research and why you're so curious about the LEGO.
Matt:
Yes, sure. So from this model, right, where the question was, why do I use LEGO SERIOUS PLAY and how do I use it at Purdue? There's kind of three ways that I do that and that correlate to my work here as a PhD student. So one way that I use it is through workshops, right? And so I use LEGO SERIOUS PLAY in kind of my engagement with different departments and organizations at the university, is on and off campus. And then another way I use it is in teaching. So I am a fellow here at the university as well. One of the ways I earn my free tuition as a fellow is I'm an instructor on campus. And so I teach different courses. And one of the big courses I'm teaching now is a Business Principles for Organizational Leadership course. And there are 125 students in each of the sections that I teach. And so I cumulatively teach 250 undergraduates.
And so I bring LEGO SERIOUS PLAY to help me get these kids interacting and working and learning together about leadership principles and how those relate to business practices and basic business concepts. And so I, again, use LEGO SERIOUS PLAY as a way to teach. And then finally, I'm really interested, my first love in academia was creativity and the way creativity – I believe that the essence of creativity is connection. It's a connection of ideas, connection of people, connection of so many different things, and in so many different ways, I love creativity. And so that's really fueled my interest in my research is to look at how teams work in creative problem-solving. So much of my master's degree is around cognitive diversity and looking at teams and how do we help them bring those pieces of knowledge together to something that was truly innovative.
And so here in my doctoral program, I really wanted to find a way to bring this idea of play and creativity that I've been working with for 10 years, this idea of leadership and teams, which is just something I care deeply about, and how do I bring those all together? And LEGO SERIOUS PLAY is just this wonderful methodology that really does marry the serious things of leadership and teams and strategy with creativity and play. Putting all those things together is just a wonderful sweet mixture of good things that I just love and have a passion for. And so that's kind of – I don't know if that answers your question. But I think that's kind of what I'm trying to do here in my PhD is marry all of these things together, and LEGO SERIOUS PLAY is the great glue that brings all of that together.
Jacquie:
Wonderful. Okay. So here's what – I just I think that our listeners would be curious to know how we met you. And I think that both Mark and I met you at the exact same time, pretty well. Why don't you tell us a little bit about how you first found out about LEGO SERIOUS PLAY, how you met us. Let's just talk a little bit about – we'll give a plug for EPIC.
Matt:
Yes, please. Yes, absolutely. Well, so yes, so I was in my undergrad at Brigham Young University and I was studying creativity education and how to bring creativity, problem-solving into classrooms. And so I was deeply involved in the world of creativity, trying to figure out how do I get more connected? How do I learn about creativity and learn from experts?
And sure enough, in the spring of 2019 saw that there was this thing called EPIC and then there's this conference in California and Ewan McGregor was going to be there; and I thought, I want to go. And I went to my mentoring professor and he's like, sure, let's do it. He was very supportive of my little adventures. And so I said, let's go. And so we went to California into the Ojai Valley. And the Music Academy of the West is a great location, but the Ojai Valley location for EPIC really has a sweet spot
for me. And it was just so small and so wonderful and I see the location. It really was a big event. But yes, there was on the schedule, there was a workshop for What the Duck, LEGO SERIOUS PLAY. I just thought LEGO and serious play and ducks. And I thought, we got to go try this out. And I went and well, Jacquie led that and it was just absolutely wonderful. And to this day, I have kept the little bag of LEGO duck that I received in its original bag from that EPIC, and it goes with me everywhere. It has been in every airport I've ever probably been in, I mean, since then. It goes everywhere with me. And so I take this little duck. So that's how I learned about LEGO SERIOUS PLAY and it wasn't until about last year that I was able to fully fulfill my dream of getting certified and moving forward on the LEGO SERIOUS – first time certified through LEGO SERIOUS PLAY. Yes. So that's where I met Mark and Jacquie and a whole bundle of good people who love LEGO SERIOUS PLAY.
Jacquie:
Yes. And then you went to, I'm just trying to remember, I think you went to the Air University in Montgomery, Alabama to take your training. Is that how that happened?
Matt:
Yes. So I got to sneak into a Teams and Groups certification. I say sneak in, because I don't think they were planning on having anyone from – clearly from Indiana or, I don't know. But it was, yes. So TOGA was there and Stephen and we had a good little group of people there. And so, yes. I got to go to Montgomery near the air force base there and take my Teams and Groups certification. So that was a lot of fun.
Jacquie:
So since then, tell us a bit more. How often would you use it? What's the response from your students? Because Mark also teaches in a college and has students as well. Tell us a little bit about the students and how they respond when you're playing with LEGO.
Matt:
Absolutely. So in the spring semester of this year, I had done a What the Ducks certification previously. And so I brought LEGO ducks in, and a shout out to the What the Duck playbook here. I use that frequently. And so one of the activities, right, is you take a duck and
build it and you take a picture of wherever you are. And so I gave each of my students a duck to take home with them and they built the duck and they took pictures of they with their little themselves with their little duck model and something in their hometown. And they sent that as an assignment to help me get to know the kids. And then later in the semester, I was teaching about agile strategy – there's a discipline of agile strategy called strategic doing, which is another thing I'm certified in. And so I was teaching strategic doing, but the students were having a hard time capturing some of the concepts. And so I said, okay, we're going to put a pause on all of this. And I brought in the ducks and I said, okay, you're building a LEGO duck and you have a LEGO duck band. And now you need to help your LEGO duck band become the number one duck band. And so they did strategic doing. They went through the agile strategy process, but all in kind of proxy with these ducks. Then we – and then I said, OK, now you're going to pause that. Now you're going to come back to the strategic process. And now we're going to do it for real life. You're going to pick some kind of strategy and go with it. And the level of work just increased in its quality. The students understood the concept so much better. And I did a little feedback session with them after. I said, what helped? And they said having the LEGO ducks there and actually playing with it actually helped us understand these concepts way better than if we had just been kind of plodding along, learning through it the traditional way. So that's one way I've used it. Another way is I have these – I teach this class and there's 125 students in a class. That's just so many people to move around.
Mark:
I can't even imagine that.
Matt:
And the classroom is set up, right, in traditional lecture format. They're all in rows, a tier, there's a stage on a stage. And Purdue is very innovative and the classroom had some fun, innovative things around it, but it's still a traditional -- I'm on a stage, there's these big screens, there's an expectation of a lecture, and that's just not my style. So I brought the ducks, and I have 150 ducks in a little box I carry with me, and I distributed the ducks. And yes, I got them moving, and we did all kinds of things with those ducks. Yes. I did a mid-course evaluation, and I'm just getting in my final course evaluations, and without a doubt, the number one thing these students are coming away with is, whatever they learned on LEGO Duck Day. And I even had a student email me and say, where can I buy a LEGO duck? And I told her what to do. And anyway, she was like, I just needed a souvenir to be able to help remember this class that I just loved so much. And so, yes, it's the student reception has been extremely positive and the engagement in the classroom really went up after having ducks in the classroom.
Jacquie:
I just, I love all of that. I love the fact that it really – I think that going to school and learning a lot, especially if it's complex and you're disconnected with the topic, like you just can't kind of bring the topic into your own framework in order to be able to get that kind of transfer of learning. And if something like a three-dimensional tool, like a duck helps you bridge that, I just think there's no better story. That's just a great story.
Matt:
Yes, and if I may add another thing is just that not giving away too much, right? But when you, everyone builds a different duck, right? We all know this, but everyone builds a different duck. So there's a room of 125 different ducks and being able to stand up there and saying, there are 125 different ducks in this room. That means there's 125 different perspectives on any given topic that we have. You have a voice that is worth being – that is worth hearing in this class. You have something to say that's of value. And saying that to 125 kids who are used to coming in and sitting down with their laptops and just taking notes, I dare say that was, I think, somewhat transformative for some of them. I had to feel that I have something I can contribute here. And we had some timid players that eventually spoke up and really did offer something to say. That was really neat.
Jacquie:
That's wonderful. Well, the story that I love to tell is that I was on the LEGO Foundation team and we did a summit in New York City for the United Nations. And here you've got not students, but you've got people functioning at a very high level. These are all constituents of the UN that are heading to this leadership summit. And we used the ducks with them. And the point that we made with them when they made everyone – got a minute, would you build a duck? And then we would show them how all the ducks were different. We just kind of kept collecting them on these high top tables, which made for great photos. But the point that we made to people is if we're going to create solutions to problems that we actually have not yet – we don't even know what these problems are going to be. They're things that are kind of coming at us and we're constantly trying to respond to them.
And if we're going to have some creative thinking that we can apply so that we can actually use our imagination to try solutions that have not been done before and think about things in a new and different way that we need to hear from everyone. And so the ducks represent all the different point of views, all the different perspectives, all the different voices, and even at that very high level. Cause what we really wanted to say is it's not just the expert that's on the stage.
It's everyone is part of this and all of us. We hear the stories, we get the facts and the details, and we process it differently. And so hearing from all of us is really what's needed. And that really resonates with people.
Matt:
Yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely.
Mark:
That's really resonant for me too. Just in thinking about this from the perspective of the classroom, we will rightly point out the relationship of information exchange in a classroom typically is this sort of exalted place from which the lecturer lectures and then that is received and notated and simply collected by the students. And the challenge is, how do we move the culture of education in a more creative direction? Well, part of what you have to do is disrupt that basic paradigm that you really expressed in just kind of very direct sort of kinesthetic terms in terms of just how the space of the classroom is arranged.
But then part of what we know about how creativity works is that it depends upon a sense of psychological safety. So how do we step into this space where we say, okay, we need you to be creative; and to do that, we're going to remove the structure of information exchange that you've been comfortable with your whole life. We need to have some sort of foundation for them to step out onto if we're going to remove that kind of educational paradigm. And I think that what I really love about LEGO SERIOUS PLAY and some of the examples that you all have shared is that it gives a tactile representation – not just a souvenir of a cool class, but it also kind of gives a concrete place for us to learn to think differently, to think with our full creativity, whether it be kinesthetic awareness and knowledge and understanding, but a way to kind of build that bridge from where we are to where we someday dream of being. So thank you for sharing those examples.
Matt:
Yes. Well, and if I may jump in Mark. I love that you said that this notion of psychological safety, when you look at the neurobiology of play, there is not a living creature that plays when they're in danger. Right? I mean, you look at little bear cubs and mama bears fishing on the edge of the river. But when it's safe, she's given all the indication that it's safe. Bear cubs are playing, they're happy. But as soon as mom says there's danger, boom, play time's over. It's up in that tree. They're fight or flight, they're up there. They freeze, they wait. Threat leaves, mom gives the cue. And when it's safe, it's time to play. And so just deep down into our, in the neuroscience, right? When we feel safe, we're ready to play. And the safe zone is a play zone.
And so being able to give that gift of saying this classroom is a safe place by actually doing what is deep in our neuroscience. We know a place is safe when people are playing. And so being able to bring LEGO into an environment and say, it's safe here and we're going to play. And we're not only going to play, we're going to play with ideas, we're going to play with each other, we're going to play with possibilities, and we're going to do all of that right here in this space. And I think that's a different dynamic than what you get, I think, in other traditional – just in traditional instructional formats. We aren't really told it's – this is a safe zone because we're going to play. When our biology says that's how we know it's safe is we play.
Jacquie:
I'm going to just jump in here too and add that it's interesting to hear us think about play and safety and learning and how students coming into a classroom, especially if you think about it's
higher education. But this applies to high school too and probably even grade seven and eight. What we've done over time is our society is all part of it, is we've taught people to think that play is for children and that in the adult world, work does not have play as part of it. And so we've actually, instead of just thinking about play as a way to step forward, we're kind of getting people to step backward. We're getting them to reverse engineer what they have been taught over time to get back to that original, which I believe is a human need and a desire to play. And you're right, Matt, you can't play if you're expecting a bomb to land on your head. It's pretty difficult to be able to feel safe if there's an immediate threat. But I think the question is, why do we feel, why is there so much threat? Why do people feel nervous in school?
And I think that for a long time, whether you're in school or a boardroom or even at a community meeting, everyone feels that the expert's got the answer and we don't want to make a mistake. We don't want to be embarrassed or feel foolish. And so then we're constantly sort of on our guard, which means that we're not able to be taking advantage of that natural creative skill set, we'll call it, that we were actually born with. Because we know from – that three year olds on the Torrance Creativity Scale are scoring in the 90 plus percentile and 25 year olds given the same test are scoring in the three percentile. So it's like what happens in that time and then how do we help our students or help the people that we work with, the adults that we work with now get back what they already had and able to be able to use that skillset, perhaps to learn some of these very technical and challenging concepts like what you were talking about strategic doing and the agile processes. But also at the United Nations, where they're thinking about solving human rights issues or environmental issues. So I think it's really a question about how can we use play to free people to get back to that natural state.
Matt:
Yes. And I think a wonderful way that LEGO SERIOUS PLAY does that is the rule that you taught me, right? Is this rule that you don't have a meeting with yourself. That you really allow yourself to trust the bricks in your hands. I'll say as, I guess as a new member to the LEGO SERIOUS PLAY and the field of it, is that's often been hard for me to do. Even in preparing for this podcast, I thought, oh my goodness, I've got to make this great model and it's – I got to think about that beforehand and how it's going to do all of these different things. I just said, no, no, no. I can't do that. I have to just lay the bricks out. I'll set the timer and I'm just going to let my hands do whatever – let my hands do whatever it's going to do. Then you just let your hands and bricks take over. And it's – I think when we do that, we really do tap into flow. We tap into all these other things, but we really are tapping into this. Jacquie, what you said, like we're really stepping backward and we're allowing ourselves to really play because we're tapping into something that is so primal, is something so deep inside of us. Because play is just into the foundation of how we learn and how we grow.
Jacquie:
Yes, it's fascinating. I mean, we could talk about – this podcast is simply not long enough. Because if we could talk about this, think, Mark and I, actually – Mark is also sending me articles that he's finding, which there seems to be emerging. So I'm going to talk about this now, Mark. And you can jump in too. But there seems to be emerging science in the world of DNA looking at sort of our makeup. As we are born into this world, we now know that there's DNA testing that can indicate things like –
And the article that Mark just sent me was about the strands of DNA that can indicate, we won't make this too technical, but that can indicate how you will build relationships. And I found an article that was all about how DNA can predict whether or not you may have a learning difference, where you might be more kinds of attention deficit or whether you're able to really hyper-focus.
So this is sort of emerging now, but I think it's really interesting because if we think about play, adults do not teach children how to play. The mother bear did not teach those baby bears how to play. It probably would be very difficult for her to do that when she's got her whole life experience behind her. So babies, children, bear cubs, kittens, they all naturally know how to play.
And it's through play that they are, I would say, their authentic selves. And so my whole thing here is how do we get people to tap back into that authentic skill set that they have, which is really a question for the classroom. How do we unlearn maybe some things that we think are true that maybe aren't true. How do we unlearn things so that we can get back to our organic or authentic talent that we're born with?
Matt:
Yes, that's a great, great question. And I don't know if I have a great answer for it. But I guess one thing I'm thinking about from Mark's comment and from yours is just in the classroom, right? Is this, I think we really hurt ourselves because a lot of the things we do in a classroom, a lot in higher education, definitely I see it. I have a seven year old and a four year old. And my four year old's in pre-K, so they're still doing things with Play-Doh and sensory tables, which is great. My seven year old, there's a lot of testing. And so I'll say, even not that I'm going to make a case against standardized testing, but I'll say that the classroom has become largely evaluative. That there's all this anxiety about being evaluated on performance. And I don't know about you, but for me, the feeling of being evaluated is crippling because I feel like they're going to judge this, going to judge that, and I don't know if I'm going to measure up. And that kills curiosity. That kills creativity so much when you are constantly being evaluative.
Dr. Amy Edmondson put out a wonderful article about failure and she has a book on it. And it was the book of the year last year for leadership. And I haven't gotten all the way through the book, but she does have a Harvard Business Review article that everyone can read where she talks about failure and what we get wrong about it. And she talks about that failure really is on a spectrum that there's blame-worthy and praise-worthy failures. And what she found in her research is that most leaders, and I would say this for teachers as well in classrooms, since we're talking about that. But leaders, again, and teachers, see most failures in their organization or in their classroom environment as blame-worthy, as something that is – something's wrong in that person. They've done something wrong.
When in reality, you look at the level of failure that's happening, most of it is praiseworthy failures. People are trying new things. They're developing a skill. And quite frankly, if you think about it in the most abstract sense, if you are trying something new you have no idea what is going to happen next. And so if it doesn't work out to get your objective, it doesn't work out. It's not a failure, because how could it be? You didn't even know how that was going to go. It was a complete experiment.
And so there really is a weird contrast to be in a higher – a world of higher education where we are trying to push the bounds on science, the limits on what we can do. Purdue has a wonderful cancer research program and we have sending people to the moon and we're doing all of these incredible things in engineering and technology. We're pushing the limits on science, but yet there's so much evaluation in that classroom environment that it really, I think that kills play a little bit. So by bringing play into the classroom, by bringing Lego in and saying, today we're going to play and this is how we're going to interact with each other, makes it a safe place. But it also says, you know what, I'm not going to worry about worrying about blame-worthy evaluations. And we're here to praise whatever you do that's new and different.
Jacquie:
Well, I think we know as soon as people start to play, their stress lowers. And as soon as their stress lowers, we actually can think better. So just like the baby bear story that as soon as you get into that flight or fight, you're not using the part, and we know this. You're not using the part of your brain that is great at problem-solving because stress then basically it's an overriding mechanism that where we go into survival mode. So if we feel that way in a classroom where we're feeling off guard, we're feeling like – or sorry, that we're on guard and we're feeling like there could we're going to get judged, we're going to get evaluated. And I think that's basically being evaluated. It's like being judged, being measured up and we all want to do well. Then it really does stop us from getting into that relaxed state where happy accidents could happen. I mean, how many stories do we know about innovation coming from that kind of a happy accident where we've let go of trying to make whatever the thing is working on that one specific thing.
So what was the name of the book again? I just want to make sure that our readers know. I know that you said there was a Harvard review. Maybe we can put a link into this.
Matt:
Yes, hang on one second. Let me get it here.
Jacquie:
And while you're doing that, maybe I will just add that one of the benefits, I think, of LEGO SERIOUS PLAY is that we do – there's a bit of a distraction technique that's used where we take people away from what they were specifically working on and have them do something else for a while. So they kind of set their goals aside and they allow themselves to play. And then when they come back to the thing they were working on, they see it with a fresh perspective. So I think that is also something that happens that it's not something that it's difficult to create it in a different way, but the LEGO SERIOUS PLAY works really well for that where it looks like we're going to be talking about something completely different. And then people are able to put the pieces, just like the LEGO bricks, back together again to kind of come back to the thing they were working on.
Matt:
Yes, that is good. Yes, so the book by Amy Edmondson is Right Kind of Wrong: The Science of Failing Well. And so, yes, it's based on her years of research and looking at failure and psychological safety.
So and it really started in the 1990s where she was looking at hospitals and failure reporting and found that the most effective teams reported more failures than those who were least effective. And she wondered why, and that's where she really discovered that the effective teams were reporting failures because it was safe to do that. It was safe to fail and they wanted to get better. By improving more failures, they realized what they needed to do to improve and they improved faster by doing that.
Jacquie:
Well, maybe I can just sow a real life story here about a client that I worked with, large organization. I won't say their name, but we'll just say very, very, very big hardware store. And so what they brought us in to help them get more innovative. And one of the things they realized through the process was this whole idea of failure. And so all the salespeople that were going out and buying new products they could sell in the store, they were tending to buy the exact same things that they had bought the year before. So there was no innovation or no creativity, let's say, in the products or services that were available; everything was exactly the same. And so what we did is we went back and we looked to see how are people getting rewarded, and they're getting rewarded based on a percentage of sales. So nobody was really going to take a risk and bring in a new product that hadn't been proven when we were constantly reinforcing their behavior through a bonus system at the end of the year for things that had sold. They're just going to keep bringing stuff that did well the year before. So there was never going to be any innovation as long as this bonus system was structured that way. And what they realized is that they needed to create some kind of a system that would actually acknowledge people that did take chances and that within some kind of a boundary perhaps would try new things that may or may not work. And it's that whole idea of learning. But that was kind of an aha moment for them that we want innovation, but if we're going to keep rewarding in the same way that is not going to drive innovation.
Mark:
Yes, that's – I love the sort of the holistic perspectives that are being brought here in terms of just like how people exist within organizations and also how people like exist within their bodies and within the nature of the bodies that they're in. I mean, when you kind of look at the situation that we place people in, whether it's in school, where people are going to be evaluated on their answers or the environment that you just brought forward, Jacquie, in terms of just the reinforcement to not try new things was there. It's like saying to people, you know, we want you to do amazing work, to dive deep, to look within yourself, as long as it comes up with answer number B. And it's like, it's a no-win situation.
And over millions of years, we've developed a fail-safe system to deal with no-win situations, which is we freeze. We completely freeze. And there's many different expressions of that kind of freezing. It's like it's the quiet quitting; it's depression. It's all these ways in which we just tune out and shut down because there isn't a solve here that we can make. And I think that when I look at the model that you brought forward here, Matt, and that lovable perspective of this spaceship here and then the surface of the moon that is contemplated. Like no one knows how to do that. There's like this space between this rocket ship and the surface of the moon that we've been able to grasp. And no one did that safely. It was all done by trial and error. It was all done with having open to us, we don't know what the answer is. Let's try some experiments. Let's see what happens. And a whole series of praiseworthy fails brought forward and bridged that gap.
It's something which only became obvious in retrospect, the connection between Indiana and the moon. The 27 astronauts, they kind of made that journey. But I think that again, Strategic Play is such a beautiful apparatus of opportunity and exploration because it gives something tactile to really ground our interest as we get past the limitations of what we think we know.
Matt:
Yes.
Jacquie:
And actually maybe one of the things Matt, we could talk about is the research that you've been doing in the paper that you're going to present in Whistler.
Matt:
Yes, that is in the works. I will tell you it is in the works. So what I'm currently doing is it's called a systematic review. So for those real academics listening to this, they'll get a feel for that, but it's a systematic review. So what I'm trying to do is I'm going through several different databases of research and I'm trying to collect everything that's been written about LEGO SERIOUS PLAY. The goal is eventually to create some buckets of LEGO SERIOUS PLAY in higher education, and then some LEGO SERIOUS PLAY in industry, and maybe, I don't know, maybe there'll be some other buckets. But those are the two big main buckets right now is the context in which LEGO SERIOUS PLAY is done. And I'm trying to look at kind of what are the trends and what are they doing? How are they implementing LEGO SERIOUS PLAY? What's kind of the – what's their approach?
A lot of it is of interest to academics, is kind of the research methodology. How are they – what are the research questions that they're asking and how are they using LEGO SERIOUS PLAY to get the answers to those questions. So it's kind of more, again, that academic feel, but really I'm hoping, still trying to, there's been, I put some breaks on it. There's some other play things I'm working on, I'm not at liberty to share all right now. But there's some other things in the works that are coming from Purdue, from me, but this, am working on a substantial piece of literature to look at the effects of LEGO SERIOUS PLAY and how it's used in higher education and industry and why people are using it. Because it really is used all over the world. And so it is fun to be connected to a global network of people who care about the power of play in that way.
Jacquie:
One of the things that I am seeing in the field where people are using LEGO SERIOUS PLAY is around mental health. And it may not be a bucket for you to find scholarly written articles on that, but it's – we're using LEGO SERIOUS PLAY in some really interesting places and training people to use it. And the example I'm going to use would be at the U.S. Air Force where they're using it for, I'm going to say post-traumatic stress disorder, because a lot of people know what that is; but it's actually moral injury. And also the United Nations are using LEGO SERIOUS PLAY and are using it for peacekeeping. So there's lots of kind of social uses of LEGO SERIOUS PLAY as well that are outside of academia and outside of, let's say, business applications that are going into this mental health area, which I think is super interesting.
Matt:
No, I think that's really fascinating. Yes, I haven't – I'm still amassing all of these titles and things. So it's a slow process and I fully admit, I probably, I know I won't have a full draft of anything by the time I'm in Whistler, but there certainly will be things to take away and look at by then. But yes, the mental health bucket. I mean, there's, mean, people are using, from what – some things are being published, and I guess that's the limitation of this research that I'm doing now. If it's not published somewhere, it's really hard for me to use it, but in no way invalidates its use. But yes, people are using it for rehabilitation after strokes. It's just incredible and just a number of different things. I'm seeing a lot of things about coaching and helping with growth mindset. And so you can easily see the transferability into mental health. It's just this methodology really is, it really is a method, like much like the scientific method that has almost an infinite number of uses. It really is just, it's only limited by our creativity and our, I guess our curiosity and how we can use it.
Mark:
I really feel so much better knowing that you're in the trenches there, Matt, just sort of looking at these research elements to it and the cross-disciplinary perspectives of it. Because I know from my own experience in academia that the tendency is to sort of seek out those narrow niches where the truth may be confirmed to the last decimal point. I think that what we're experiencing in our ever more connected world is places where mental health and creativity and organizational stability and scientific innovation, all of these things are coming together and that becomes this place that is difficult
for us to document. And it's also a creative space that is kind of beyond the limits of what is known. And so creating these tools and finding those research reinforcements and validations for these kinds of interdisciplinary places where life is really lived. It's just really exciting and thanks for doing all that hard work.
Jacquie:
Yes, that's right.
Matt:
Yes, well, a grad student's got to do something, right? Got to do something, right?
Jacquie:
Well, I am so happy that you're going to be coming to Whistler and speaking. And I think that I'm just going to do a shout out right now for Whistler. So Strategic Play are doing a conference. It's happening in Whistler. It's happening in April and it's going to be at Nita Lake Lodge. So come to the Alpine. We're going to be hanging out on April 23rd. And it goes from 9:00 in the morning to 9:00 at night. So it's going to be a full on two days. And we're going to have some amazing speakers like Matt talking about how play is being used. And it won't just be on LEGO SERIOUS PLAY. The conference is Play Without Borders. So we've got somebody speaking about using LEGO SERIOUS PLAY at the jet propulsion lab and NASA. Someone else is talking about using it at the Department of Defense. And then of course, academia with Matt, Lululemon is going to be there talking about using LEGO SERIOUS PLAY in the work that they do. So I think it's going to be really kind of multi-industry, sort of just basically everywhere and anywhere. And I think that people would love to meet you personally, Matt, and find out what you're up to.
Matt:
Well, thanks. Hope so. I'm just grateful to be there. The conference that – the Strategic Play Conference this year in Florida was such a pivot point for me in my education and my experience that to not go to Strategic Play in Whistler just feels – that just feels just plain stupid. You have to go. You have to go and experience the good things that happen there.
Jacquie:
Well, thank you.
Mark:
Yes. And for those who are listening who would love to know more about your work and are curious, maybe some fellow adventurers looking at kind of the academic inquiries that you're engaged in and where the science meets the LEGO. Where might they find you and how might they follow you?
Matt:
Great. Well, I'm on LinkedIn. So you can find me through LinkedIn, I'm sure. And I share my adventures there mostly. But yes, I'm happy to talk to anyone via email. I don't know if I can include it here in the podcast information, but I'm happy to be reached that way. And I believe again, the essence of creativity is connection. So however we want to connect with whomever, I think will always lead to something creative. So I'm always excited to talk to people, share ideas, and see what we can come up with. So yes, those are all ways to connect with me and happy to connect.
Jacquie:
Well, it was wonderful having this time with you today.
Matt:
Yes, thank you. I really appreciate being here and having a rich conversation. I appreciate your insights and look up to both of you so much. So this has been just a real treat for me.
Jacquie:
Well, it's a mutual. We're super happy to have met you at the conference and to be hanging out with you and have you part of the play tribe.
Mark:
Thank you again so much, Matt. And, welcome.
Matt:
Yes, thank you. Appreciate it.
[ Conclusion ]
Mark:
What a fun conversation. I really feel encouraged about the next generation of teachers and students just to know that Matt is doing this work. And I love the insight and enthusiasm that he's bringing to bringing play methods to his students.
Jacquie:
Yes. It was super fun to hear him mention the book Now What the Duck? and to know that he used a couple of activities and talked about them being – taking the duck home with you and taking a picture to share something about yourself. I think that just makes my heart feel wonderful to know that he was using it. And then the other activity that he mentioned really quickly was the rock band, which is also out of that same Now What the Duck? book. So just to hear that, to know that he's taking those ideas, using them and having such a positive response in his classroom. Yes, I just think that that's wonderful news.
Mark:
Yes, I totally agree. What thoughts do you have for how we might invite our listeners to be part of this? I'd love to know how other people who are engaged in education might be using LEGO SERIOUS PLAY. Anything like that maybe a challenge you'd like to offer?
Jacquie:
No, I really just think if you have been in a classroom where you have experienced LEGO SERIOUS PLAY, whether – maybe you're one of Matt's students, I don't know. But if you've been in a classroom and your professor or your teacher or a facilitator has come to your classroom with LEGO SERIOUS PLAY and you've used it and you've had any kind of an aha or even just really it allowed you to tell your story, we would just love to hear from you. Or if you're a teacher and you're using LEGO SERIOUS PLAY or a librarian or somebody in the education field and you're using LEGO SERIOUS PLAY in your classroom, I think we would really love to hear your story. So if you can either send us an email to hello@strategicplay.com or if you're listening to this podcast in our network, you can just go ahead and leave a comment. We would love to hear the stories.
Mark:
Yes, I love that. What I find through the podcast and through conferences, I feel like there's this sort
of loose tribe of fellow adventurers who are taking these tools and really creating the future of creativity and education. And I always find that I have so much to learn from what people are trying and the results that they're having. Yes, I really look forward to continuing this conversation in the podcast and with anyone who has something that they would like to share.
Jacquie:
And maybe I'll just add that we didn't talk about it in the podcast, but I know because I was with Matt that he did the Playsonality and he is an Adventurer. And I really do think everything he's doing just really reflects that Playsonality that play style of trying new things, testing, pushing the boundaries, kind of breaking all the rules in order to see how far things can go. And I just love that he's busy doing that. And I think we'll have to keep our eye on Matt for all the good things that are going to come our way.
Mark:
I agree.
Jacquie:
All right, my friend. Well, it was fun chatting with you.
Mark:
As always. Until next time.
Jacquie:
Until next time. Bye for now.
Mark:
Bye bye.