Podcast Guest: Stephen James Walling
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Stephen is a connector and a natural born team builder and problem solver.
He comes from a mechanical and building background with over 10 years experience as a bicycle mechanic. As a designer, he holds certifications as a guitar builder (Luthier) and studio wood furniture making. He is also an accomplished musician.
Stephen is certified and registered as a Strategic Play® facilitator with LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® methodology and has been training in LSP since 2010 under one of the original LEGO® Master Trainers. He has level II certification in Simplex Creative Problem Solving and Decision Making, trained directly by Dr. Min Basadur. He holds certificates in Agile Coaching, Project Management, Simplex, Creative Problem Solving, and is a graduate of Royal Roads University with a certificate in Executive Coaching.
Today, he facilitates and trains in LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® methods throughout Canada, USA, Central America, (Panama) and South America (Venezuela), Japan, Austria, and Australia. Occasionally he teaches at Royal Roads University where he acts as a Strategic Mentor in the MBA program: Advanced Strategic Integrated Practice. This is a fast-paced, intensive, problem-based learning program and Stephen is there with LEGO® bricks ready for business analysis.
In 2021, Stephen was nominated by his peers as a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts (F.R.S.A).
Stephen credits his creative talents to playing with LEGO® as a child.
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[ Introduction ]
Welcome to the Strategic Play Podcast. Unlock Your creativity, expand your mind, and have good clean fun with Strategic Play founder and LEGO® Serious Play® Master Trainer, Jacquie Lloyd Smith, and creative force and curious mind, Mark Millhone.
Mark:
Hello, Jacquie.
Jacquie:
Hello, Mark. How are you?
Mark:
I'm excellent. How are you?
Jacquie:
I am excellent, too. And I'm kind of excited because we get to interview Stephen Walling today.
Mark:
That's right. Today, we're going to look at a question that has been troubling baby boomers and Gen Xers for the better part of the last decade. How the heck do you work with millennials?
Jacquie:
And he is a millennial, and he also works with millennials. So he might be able to give us some insights to this.
Mark:
Stephen Walling is a connector and a natural born team builder and problem solver. He comes from a mechanical and building background, with over 10 years of experience as a bicycle mechanic, as a designer. He holds certifications as a guitar builder and as a studio wood furniture maker. He's also an accomplished musician. Stephen is certified and registered as a LEGO® Strategic Play facilitator and with LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® methodology, and has been training in LSP since 2010. He holds certificates in agile coaching, project management, psychometrics, creative problem solving, and is a graduate of the Royal Roads University with a certificate in executive coaching. He is also co-author of the book What the Duck, a book full of activities using six LEGO bricks for team development. And he has been an associate faculty member at Royal Roads University and was nominated as a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts. He credits his creative talents to playing with LEGO as a child.
So Jacquie, for those who are completely new to this program, what is LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY®
Jacquie:
So LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® is a methodology that was actually developed initially from the LEGO Systems Group and has now spread around the world. It's in the hands of many, many facilitators. It's an agnostic tool that can be applied to use in multiple different situations, whether it's in a community or a business, an organization or even on an individual level. So it's a thinking tool where people are building some kind of a model, which I would say is an artifact that holds a rich and interesting story.
Mark:
Terrific. So let's dig into the conversation.
Jacquie:
Alright, let's go.
[ Interview ]
Mark:
Stephen Walling, welcome to the podcast.
Stephen:
Thank you for having me.
Mark:
What was Stephen's prompt, Jacquie?
Jacquie:
Well, we asked Stephen if he would build a model regarding being a millennial and—because Stephen is a millennial. So we want to know Stephen, what do millennials need? What specifically do you need to do your best work?
Mark:
Jacquie's going to walk through this model in some detail with Stephen. I'll give you just a basic snapshot of it. It sort of looks like a Jenga puzzle, with different pieces stacked up on top of each other, interesting pieces of color, and diagonal lines coming across it. And near the top of that Jenga puzzle is a figure waving a flag.
Jacquie:
Thanks, Mark. Okay, Stephen. Thanks for building this for us. I'm going to ask you some questions about it, if I may.
Stephen:
Yes. That sounds good.
Jacquie:
Alright. Okay. So first question: Where are you in this model?
Stephen:
So I am relatively high up on this model. So I'm basically two thirds of the way up. Not at the very top, but certainly up there. And I'm kind of looking around.
Jacquie:
And so that’s you. It's a Minifigure holding a flag. Is that correct?
Stephen:
Yes.
Jacquie:
Perfect. Okay. So this—it looks like a tower, but it's got lots of pieces kind of sticking out and I can see—so why don't we start with the base? So on the base of the model, which is quite interesting the way it's all stacked there. I can see things like a flag. I think I can see the yellow transparent piece that looks like it's underneath, holding some kind of a platform. Can you tell us about that part?
Stephen:
Yes. So I think to frame it up, what this actually is, is the entire organization. And so the prompt was: What do you need or what do millennials need to be successful? And I ended up building the entire organization, and I made a very busy, complex model, which represents Strategic Play, where I work.
And the reason for that is our organization is actually relatively complicated because we do a couple of different things, to be very simplistic. We train people in this LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® methodology, but we also go and we do some consulting work where we run workshops. That is our customer facing version of the organization.
But what goes on behind the scenes is it's an incredibly complex system of different facets, which are mostly digital at this point. And so the reason why I made this really complicated looking model is because our organization is actually quite complex. And so for me to be successful and to do my job well, I need to have a very in-depth understanding of what goes on, which oftentimes is not the case.
I find myself kind of struggling with different things, but at least I do get to see the entire organization holistically. So that's really helpful for me is knowing what is the overall picture and what are the objectives that we're trying to reach? Because it allows me to frame up my tasks and how I operate inside of this organization, because I'm really kind of one cog that operates inside of the machine. And knowing what the machine is doing allows me to think more holistically about the things that I do.
Jacquie:
Alright. Okay. So the pieces that you put here, definitely it looks like a complex model. And like Mark described it as a Jenga puzzle. Are there any sort of like the bottom, the middle, the top, does anything represent something like within those pieces that you can tell us a bit more about?
Stephen:
There's definitely a sense of balance and unbalance—or imbalance—inside of the model. And I think what kind of transpired through the building is that is really—I mean, it's a metaphor for trying to understand a complicated system, but there's definitely a balancing act that goes on for me at work. And I think that's probably pretty fair to say for a lot of people. So I don't know that things were specifically targeted at like the marketing department or sales. It was more so a look at this complicated machine that is finely balanced, and there's almost kind of a sense of fragility there or… Yes. It's like it’s very tentative, but everything works.
Jacquie:
Okay. Interesting. When I look at the top, I can see some transparent and clear pieces. There's like a flower and I can see the red brick and the white brick. Are there any specific meanings behind those bricks?
Stephen:
Well, I think we have a very feminine approach to business, and there's a lot of empathy that is involved in coaching and facilitation and training. And I think that the red and the pink really represents that. And then the green is targeted for sustainability and growth.
Jacquie:
Ah. Okay. Alright. Great. Okay. Super. Well thanks for walking us through this model. Are there any other thoughts that you want to share that I might've missed?
Stephen:
I think that's probably—I think that encompasses the majority of it. I think the flag that I'm holding is me waving the flag for LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY®. That's what it means to me, anyway.
Jacquie:
For the methodology.
Stephen:
Yes.
Jacquie:
Alright. Super. Mark, what about you? Have you got any questions or comments?
Mark:
What I hear you saying is that what's important for you is to have a holistic understanding of the organization that you're working with. And I wonder if you could shine a light for us about how that's particularly important, for you as a millennial, to really feel that you can do your best work.
Stephen:
Okay. Great question. I'm going to use an analogy to answer that question. So we are on a journey, and if I know the destination it allows me to make decisions in real time without having to go back to my navigator. So let's say we're driving across the city. I know we're going to the park. Instead of having the navigator sit beside me and me not know what the journey is or what the destination is and going take a right here, take a left there, go around that speed bump. It allows me, if I know what the actual objective is, it allows me to make decisions without having to check back in with leadership to go, is this the correct decision to make?
Because I understand the framework in which I'm operating in and what the desired outcome is. It also allows me, when a decision is made, I don't have to go back and question the logic or the reasoning behind what the decision has been made, because I understand what the overall objective is. Whereas if I didn't know what the big picture is that we're doing, I end up having to ask more clarifying questions, which can slow down the process where maybe it wouldn't have been necessary to look for clarification that had already existed. And therefore it makes my job easier. Another thing that I think is probably quite particular to millennials is if we don't understand the why then we can't really discern the how. And then the tasks that is being asked of us, you might just want to sidestep it and go, “Well, I don't really see the point .”
Mark:
This is so resonant for me with a conversation that I had with one of my students, where we were trying to really break down, like, what is the communication breakdown between millennials and boomers or Gen Xers. And what came out of that conversation was this same focus on the why that you're bringing forward.
The challenge that I feel like so many people in my generation are having is that we're not digitally native. And so there will come some work challenge that we don't really know how to do.
And our prime directive is to work. But we're finding that we can't work in this digital or kind of combination, I call it “phygital” environment. And so oftentimes the question I'm asking is: How do I do this thing that I need to do? And then the conversation comes back to me from a younger colleague: Well, where's the why? Give me something that will help motivate me or a common vision for where we go. Does this resonate with what your experience is?
Stephen:
Yes. And again, our reality is based on our experience. And so I didn't grow up in the ‘50s. I wasn't born right after the war. I didn't grow up in ‘60s and ‘70s. I was born in ‘86 and I really grew up in the ‘90s. And then the formative years in the 2000s, I graduated high school in 2004.
And the education system that I came up in was really focused around digital literacy. And I'm trying to think of the style of thinking. It was all about critical thinking. And so for millennials, we've grown up with this incredibly powerful tool, the Internet. And it's exciting to go online and find the answers to basically just about any inquiry. And I think that my generation has a very big distrust with mainstream media. And I think that we really need to delve into all facets of a problem so that we know that we're solving the right one, because I think that there's so many things that shape a generation. Some of it is education. A lot of environmental. And I think for millennials, the era of going to work at the mill and then working for 30 years and retiring, that’s not really something—that's not a work landscape that really exists anymore.
And so I think for whatever reasons, millennials are really, really attracted to lifestyle. And they're on a quest for meaning, because things like houses have become incredibly out of reach depending on what market you're in. And I think that if you are—it's not like put your head down and work for 25, 30 years, get your pension, your house is paid off. So if you can't have those things, I think people are looking at things like living in vans and traveling and working digitally.
My brother, for example, left Canada and moved down to Mexico a couple of years ago. And he couldn't be happier. He just—he has a great lifestyle. He lives really close to the beach and he's able to maintain the exact same work quality that he had in Canada. But his expenses have diminished by probably 80%.
So I think that there's a real level of adventure that comes with those kinds of decisions and flexibility and lifestyle. Because I think that for whatever reason, I think millennials have just gone: If I can't buy into this country or this society, I'm going to continue to work but I want to work in my way at my pace, in a place that is going to meet my needs.
Jacquie:
James that runs a moving truck, because I needed some things moved and he's a millennial. And I called him and asked him if he could do this move for me. And he said, “Thanks for your support over the years, but I've sold the business and I'm moving to the Caribbean.” And I'm like, oh. And he actually said, “I'm like emigrating, like I'm going.”
So I think that for a long time, Canada was really, and I’m not sure about the U.S., but there was a real concern about brain drain about young people leaving rural communities to head to the cities. And what that means for—because Canada is mostly rural. Like there's only a few big cities over 100—100,000 people constitutes a city. But the majority of people in Canada, for a long time, we're living in rural locations. And that changed, I don't know how many years ago, maybe 20 years ago when all the young people started migrating into the city. I think the next concern could be the migration of millennials out of the country.
So that's something that could be a trend that we need to kind of keep an eye on. But going back, Steve, to your point about, and I think Mark, you bought it out of as well, just the generations and how they operate. And I was able to listen to David Foot speak. He wrote the book Boom, Bust & Echo. And he talked about baby boomers, then the echo generation, which came kind of like right after the baby boomers. There was a bit of a lull, and then there were the people that were born sort of early-to-mid ‘60s and then Generation X, which seemed to be the workhorse for that—these are the people now that are moving kind of, they're probably all senior leaders, and then the next generation coming along are the millennials.
And he didn't talk about the millennials in his book, because you weren’t here yet. You were all in high school. But anyway, I think the interesting thing about what he was saying is that there's a big difference between the way the baby boomers worked and even Generation X. And the baby boomers definitely, after the war, all these babies were born and by the time they graduated from high school there were lots of jobs.
And then when Generation X came along, they had to work a lot harder and kept going back to school to take more and more and more and more degrees in order to kind of reach that higher level that they were striving for. And so we can see Generation X as being really hard workers.
Those people now are supporting millennials or have millennials working for them. And there does seem to be a lot of kind of a disconnect or maybe a lack of understanding between how we supervise millennials. I think it's like a big question that a lot of people struggle with. We went to a conference, actually we were doing a LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® conference in Mississauga and somebody had spoken on millennials, and there was a table of millennials. So when I went to their table, they happened to all be females. And so I said, “Oh, and here's a table of females.” And one of them said, “Yes. And we're all millennials, which means we're lazy and we don't care.” And I said, “What are you talking about?” And they said, “Oh no. The speaker that was on yesterday said that, that's kind of how we show up.”
And so then I said to them, “Well, in a minute we're going to be passing the microphone around and we're going to hear from all the tables. So why don't you guys volunteer to tell the story that you built with your LEGO?” And they were like at first, “No, no, no. We can't do that,” because these girls would have been young women, would have been in probably their 20s. And so I encouraged them and said, “No, this is your moment. You guys, look. There's like 300 people here. And if you're going to have the microphone, this could be your chance.” And so they did it. They said okay. And so all of them stood up, they pass the microphone, they told their LEGO story. And at the end, when everyone laughed, they all lined up to thank me for that moment to have a chance to tell their story.
And I really think that this is one of the things that we perhaps are not doing enough of, is like sitting down and listening to millennials. Because basically, Stephen, everything you just said that millennials need, all of that can easily be delivered. But perhaps we just don't deliver it because we don't know that we need to deliver it.
Stephen:
Yes. That's a very interesting point. I was also thinking about how parenting styles probably have changed pretty drastically over the years, as well. I know for me growing up, there was always an explanation for why this and that is happening or why we're doing what we're doing versus probably people of a generation before me. It would just be like, well, because our parents are saying so and that's the end of it. There's no discussion. I think from a coaching perspective, one thing I really loved in my program is my professors. They'd always say, “People need to be seen, heard, and understood.” And I think that there's different generational cues for different generations.
There's things that everyone needs. But I think there is a commonality between all generations, and that is the quest of meaning and also of people simply acknowledging one another. And I think that's something that we really don't do a very good job of. What's interesting is acknowledgement is a very personal thing. And so some people want a cake and a party with balloons and then other people want just a very quiet thank you for your efforts. And if you don't identify and define those, it's really hard to acknowledge people's efforts, which is really almost a very small celebration of just who you are and your contributions.
And David Rock has a fantastic model called the SCARF model. And so SCARF stands for: Status, Certainty, Autonomy, Relatedness, and Fairness. And so I'm just going to dive into this quickly, if possible, if I can.
Jacquie:
No. Go for it.
Stephen:
Alright. So status is—it can be your role at work. You could be the director of operations or you could also be someone who makes the best chocolate chip cookies So it doesn't necessarily have to be this big formal title. It could also just be an acknowledgement around something that you do well. You’re always on time or—like Dave's the Iron Man, he never gets sick. Your status is anything that really can wrap into your identity as a person. And you can see conflicts that emerge when people start having little attacks on one another’s status, because really what you're doing is you're attacking someone's—their sense of being. It's really kind of an awful thing, but you can kind of see the little crab bucket comments that happen.
So anyway, status. People need to have status. Certainty. You need to know that when you show up for work on Monday, there's still going to be a job there for you on Friday. We're not rearranging the office or we're not changing into a work—a home-based office. We’ve worked with the government in years gone by, and they've turned into these more open space office buildings, where you lose your office and your cubicle and people are working in these small pods and people hate it. They— people do not like change. And so there's not a lot of certainty around the physical space of work. So people need to know that there's going to be a continuum of just normality, as far as that's concerned. Autonomy. That basically speaks for itself. I'm free to show up to work and I get to do the things that are on my task list. I'm not getting micromanaged. And if I have some interesting ideas, maybe I get to explore those. Relatedness is how do I relate to those around me? And that again is really on the individual level. So I relate to people at Strategic Play because we all have very common values and we're all trying to accomplish the same things through play. And then Fairness, it's again, very basic to if I'm doing the same task as the person beside me, they're not making twice as much money as I do or they don't have a parking space at the front of the parking lot and I have to walk six city blocks. So I think if you're missing any of those necessary elements, I think that people get really disengaged. And so one thing I love about LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® is it really nicely dovetails and it answers really all of those questions. And so status, I get to talk about who I am in this workshop. Certainty, there is a very systematic approach. You know that each round is going to be exactly the same. Autonomy, I get to build whatever I want. Relatedness, I get to share elements of who I am, and then I get to hear about other people sharing the elements of who they are. And then Fairness: Everybody builds, everyone shares their story, and we don't skip anyone. So there are a lot of really interesting elements to LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY®, the checkboxes of models that are probably even being devised right now. And then at the end of a workshop, you end up with these secondary unintended consequences, like trust, people have fun. They learn things about one another, and it ends up building these really cohesive teams that have a very clear understanding of what the work is and who is on their team. That was a little bit of a…
Jacquie:
No. That's good. That was good. I guess as I'm listening to it, I'm thinking, Okay. So that seems to be a really great checklist for millennials. Like if we think about everything you said, probably this is what millennials want. But I'm also thinking that even though the baby boomers or maybe Generation X didn't demand these things, they'd liked them too.
Stephen:
Yes. I agree.
Mark:
Yes. I think that's a really wonderful thing about a model like that is that it says: These are common needs. We all have these needs and through having that as a touch point and looking at methodologies like LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY®, which makes the expression of those needs, wants, goals very tangible. We could observe the commonality that exists. Our needs may be different, but we all have them. One thing to think about is can we, and this is always the creative challenge, how can we take whatever is given to us and make a legacy? That's a quote that I'm stealing from August Wilson that will come up again and again for me. It's just the creative challenge: How can you take what is given and make of it a legacy. How can we take the different perspectives and strengths that happened generationally and turn that diversity into gold?
Jacquie:
Well I just Googled this really quickly while we were talking, the Human Rights Commission in Canada. And I don't know about the U.S. of course again, because I'm a Canadian. But it was founded in 1982. It became part of the Canadians constitution, which is interesting because I had already graduated from high school by then. And so this idea of human rights was not woven into the curriculum or school life for me, but it would have been for the millennials. So the millennials grew up kind of knowing what their rights were and understanding and maybe pushing. This is one of the things I'm thinking is that the things that millennials want, we could say are good for everyone within an organization. But these are things that we should have been thinking about before anyway.
Stephen:
I have to agree with that. I also think that it's interesting saying that these are things that everybody wants, but now millennials are more vocal about it. I don't really know why that is, but I can only think environmental. What is the media that we've been absorbing and consuming, and what was school and home life like. But I think it's like you said. I think what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Jacquie:
I'm just thinking, Steve, that if millennials are asking lots of why questions, answering them is probably really important for leaders to do anyway because leaders should also know why. And maybe they don't. Like how many things do we do just because we always did it that way? How many things do we do just because we think that, that is the only way to get the result that we're looking for, even if it doesn't work. I mean, often I see people doing the same thing, even though they know it doesn't work because it's too risky to try something new. And they just try to do the same thing over and over again, and hoping at some point it's going to come together.
So this whole question of millennials asking why and bringing them to the table, and Mark as you just suggested, is actually could be, from a strategy point of view, it could be an excellent strategy in order to not only unearth all the information that needs to be unearthed, but perhaps to go down the ladder of why to understand just sort of the tree of thinking. I'm just thinking of challenge mapping, Stephen. Why and what’s stopping you, and how that is such a great approach to figuring out the actual common denominator of what the problem is so that we're not solving the wrong problem.
Mark:
I mean, in terms of the: What's stopping you? I mean, at least what I've seen with faculty members which I've managed, there's a real humility gap I think that exists in people that are in my generation to be asked why? That's seen as a challenge to authority.
Jacquie:
Right
Mark:
So I think it takes leaders being able to take a step back and say this is an opportunity. “If someone in my organization is asking me the question why that means it's not clear. And if it's not clear for this person, it's probably not clear for everybody. And that's my job.” So I think that it takes some more humility and kind of earned confidence with uncertainty for leaders to really make use of that gift.
Jacquie:
I think the other thing too is that when we talk about bringing everyone to the table and hearing from everyone, sometimes leaders will feel like: Well if we hear from everyone, then we have to do what everyone wants. And around here, people are going to want a shorter work week and more money. I'm just using that as an example. But when we bring everyone together and we hear from everyone and we answer those questions why, it's really giving leadership more information so that they can make better decisions.
Mark:
I think that's great. And I I'd be curious hear your thoughts on this, Stephen. I think there's a real empathy challenge here, because from an older generation’s perspective, it was: I'll do what you tell me to do because that's my job. And for that job I will get this money. And so from that place to hear someone questioning the why, we don't really hear the why. We go to these what and how much. And so if they're questioning the why that means they want a different job. They want to unsettle the working relationship and they must be wanting to improve their situation in a concrete way or in a fiduciary way. And oftentimes the why question is looking at like look, if you only live once and this is going to be an important day, then why would I spend it this way? And if you give me a good one, then I'll go all in. I just want to learn how to take care of my sense of meaning, so help me out. Does that resonate?
Stephen:
Yes. That’s interesting. Yes, absolutely. And it's funny, I think millennials get colored with this like powder puff girls, like this fun, airy, easygoing, not really that interested, checked out. But there's a real undertone of kind of nihilism, and people might keel over when I say this. I think it's very kind of punk rock, because there's a real anti-establishment vibe that kind of permeates the millennial zeitgeists. I don't really, it's, it's very intangible, but I can tell you—so we went and worked with the Marketing university of Vienna. And it's interesting working with people that are really not that much younger than me, but are still within my generation.
And when you stand up in front of the classroom, you still get this glazed over, like, who is this guy and why is he taking up my time? And it's interesting how quickly you can convert millennials and get them engaged if you just start addressing them kind of at the individual level. And that's really what LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® does.
And I think that people in different generations probably have a higher tolerance to maybe people coming in and speaking and attending workshops. I think that millennials need the “What's in it for me?” answered very early on. And I think that how you address that in an organization, again, it comes down to the individual. Because maybe one person needs more money, but one person maybe needs more time to get to work. And it's funny talking about millennials, because we're not like Justin Bieber just hitting the stage. Like I—it's funny to look at Justin Bieber now, because it felt like he was kind of the face of millennials because he had really gained popularity right around the time that my generation had kind of earned that moniker.
And you look at him now and he's covered in tattoos, he's married, and he's probably going to have a kid soon. So I think it's funny to be a part of a generation because I don't really think about it that frequently. But one thing that I do is I kind of, I have this one stereotype for millennials, which is kind of bizarre because it starts at around ‘81. And then depending on who you talk to, the tail end is ‘92 to ’94, as far as years of birth. And so I have a friend that is was born in ’81, Collin, and he's a helicopter pilot. And he has almost nothing to do with people that are born in 1994 to ’96, like this is a very broad generation. And it's funny because Collin is really—he has more to do with the generation that proceeded him, which I think was Generation X. Correct me if I'm wrong .
Jacquie:
No. You're right.
Stephen:
Okay. Then people further down the line are the millennials. So it's very interesting. He very kind of belongs to the older school of accountability and responsibility and respect for the organization. Whereas as you go through the years, it kind of gets into more distrust and really a place of not knowing and uncertainty.
Jacquie:
And I think it really depends on which model you're looking at, because some people that are born in like 1983 would say that they're more like Generation X than they are like a millennial. And even me, so I'm more the echo boom. So after the baby boomers and before Generation X, but I associate much more with Generation X than I do with baby boomers, as an example.
So I think that those, the generations or the years of birth that are kind of straddling can, depending on where they went to school, how they were raised, I guess just even who your friends are, where you lived on the planet. I think those things can kind of also influence. And then there's always going to be outliers that are like born right in the middle of whatever. And they're like, I don't fit in here at all. So I think that when we look at sort of the different generations, I think what we're really trying to do, it's just like doing the Myers-Briggs or any of those kinds of tools where we kind of put people into small groups to understand how they behave.
I think really it's just to sort of see, is there a pattern? And when we can pick out a pattern, then I think people can identify, yes. I'm part of that pattern and I'm not part of that pattern. But I think the bigger question really is what can we learn? And how can we move forward in a way that benefits organizations and teams and individuals. I mean, really if anyone's listening to this and they're thinking, yes, I need to sit down and engage my staff more and I need to do a better job of listening and I need to have a system or a process to do that. That's great. I mean, that's kind of like, okay, somebody heard that perhaps there's something here that they could hear from the millennials. That perhaps that you could then incorporate into their entire organization about how they function that will make everyone happier, will make everyone more engaged, will make everyone want to stay and be part of what we're trying to accomplish.
Stephen:
Yes, absolutely. And I think that—I think there's some really easy wins. I think that, that's compelling leadership stories and explaining the why is where are we going? Why are we doing it? And then if you can make sure that the SCARF model is being addressed for people that's great. And I think the best way to do that is to engage people on an individual level.
Jacquie:
And yes, and I think that leadership story is really a good point Stephen, because I think that when leaders tell stories that have like historic lessons like, “Oh we used to do it this way, but then we quit doing that because the ministry came in and told us we couldn't do it. And then we did it this way, but we stopped doing that because it was too expensive and we realized that people didn't like it anyway.” Like those kinds of stories to help explain how we got to where we are right now, sharing that with your team and specifically the millennials, to engage them, so they can help you think through perhaps the next prototype that we're going to try or the next—I don't know, the next great big internal system that we're going to purchase, this great big computer system. And here's why we're buying it. And this is why we want everyone to use it. It's that kind of thing that I think that's where engagement comes from, instead of just saying to people, “Oh, we’re not doing that anymore. We're doing this now,” and having people walk away thinking, well that's kind of dumb. So it’s sort not just telling them the story but also then getting that feedback of, do you guys have any other ideas or what am I missing here?
Stephen:
Yes. I think that's great. I'm laughing here, because I'm thinking just avoid the pulling your pants up, going “When I was your age…” I don't think that's how compelling leaderships work.
Mark:
Okay. That makes sense to me.
Jacquie:
Can you tell my parents that?
Mark:
That makes sense to me. I mean, it's almost like the rejoinder should that be like well, the millennial would say, “Well when I was a kid, the entire world was in the palm of my hand, and I was given hundreds of options every single day about whether I liked something or not.” And to kind of have that be something that's in a leadership person's mind in terms of the vision of the world that was handed, like every option in the world is available. That's kind of a baseline understanding. And if I'm a millennial or Gen Z, I've been bombarded with people that want me to like something. And you're just one more in that line of individuals that want me to like something. Well, I would love to find something to like, but I'm going to have to honestly like it. So help me. Help me find the why. Where's the why?
Jacquie:
And I think this is another point, Mark. I mean we probably could talk about this all day, but it's the paradox of choice So not only did, let’s say when I graduated from high school, I had like three crappy choices. Like there wasn't the endless infinite amount of possibilities that we have now that the technology has brought to our doorstep. That has created unhappiness.
There's a book, and I think it's called the Happiness Project. And I can't remember the name of the woman that wrote it, so please forgive me. But I did read the book, and she talked about going to the store and wanting to buy white t-shirts. And she was saying, “I just liked the look of jeans and a white t-shirt, and that's my look. And so I was going to the store to buy—to refresh my wardrobe with 10 new white t-shirts. And when I got there, they had all these colors. And so then I stood there for an hour trying to figure out what color I wanted.” And basically, she connected the unhappiness to the paradox of choice and having to make a decision. Because along with saying to the millennials, “You can have anything you want. You know, when I was a kid, I only had three choices. You can have any choice.” The other side of that is you have everything. And that comes with it this huge responsibility that you better pick well, and you’d better make some good decisions because I didn't even have a choice.” So it's almost like that backpack full of privilege is a pretty heavy backpack that some people can't even pick up.
And I think that this is part of a lack of understanding perhaps that previous generations may have with the millennials is that yes, they have all of these opportunities. But like you said, the weeding through all of that garbage to try to find a few flowers is just as much if not more work, much more complex, than let's say the three crappy choices that we had. We picked one crappy choice and then that led us actually to the next really good choice. The millennials, they don't have that path. It's not clearly defined
Stephen:
Yes. Very interesting.
Mark:
How can we bring all these insights together? And I agree, it's like it's a topic that we could spend all day every day talking about, but what are our takeaways here? Part of what I'm hearing is to embrace the why and to embrace being accountable to that why. What other things would you want us to take away from this conversation?
Stephen:
So for me, as a millennial and a coach, I think if you have disengaged staff or even if you have engaged staff, I think that you really need to set aside time for people and just go, “How are things going for you? What do you need? Are there things that we could improve? Do you have ideas you want to share?” And I think that I wouldn't have a coaching session with three people. I would have a coaching session with one person so that I can really give them the time and space to explore themselves and their thoughts. And I think that's a gift that everyone needs. And everyone wants that “10 Easy Ways to Engage Your Staff.” I think it all starts with the individual. And I think if you're in a leadership position, I think it's important for you to engage with your staff and check in with them. Maybe it's once a week, maybe it’s once a month. And I’m sure lots of people could say, “Well, I just I don't have time for that.” But your staff in an organization is likely the most important asset and investment you can make. I've heard a statistic that it costs three times an annual salary to find, train, and retain a staff member So it's a really cheap investment to sit down with someone for 45 minutes a fortnight or a month, and just go, “How are things going for you? What do you need?” And it starts with the individual, engaging with people on a one-to-one level. And I think that the value of that is just untold.
Jacquie:
Right. And I think that when you say leaders are saying, “Well, I'm too busy for that,” they're probably busy doing things. It's sort of like Stephen Covey's Sharpening the Saw. The guy that's cutting down the tree and won't stop cutting to sharpen his saw because he's too busy cutting down the tree. So what you're saying about making time for your staff could then save tons of time in a million other areas, and money. I mean, I think it's also resources, which you just pointed out the cost.
Stephen:
Yes, for sure. And I think it's a really cheap solution. I mean, if, if people are struggling with mental health and you can sit down with them and say, “I see you and I hear what you're going through,” that's really helpful. A lot of people, even just the act of checking in with someone, it makes you—it’s not going to solve your problems, but if it makes you feel like you're not alone in them, then that might be all the support someone needs. I just got an email and someone said, “Could you run a LEGO serious play workshop to identify and help reduce the anxiety of coming back to work?” And I was like, “Wow. I didn't even consider that, that could even be a problem for someone, but I have also not asked people.” So again, that would not be an issue for me going back into the office. I don't have anxiety around that. I would actually think that would be great. But for some people that's a huge problem. And again, you wouldn't have—you wouldn't know that unless you asked someone.
Jacquie:
And the answer is yes. We can run a LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® workshop for that. But I think you're right. How do we know all the experiences or all the concerns of our staff unless we ask them? And I think your point is a good one. So my thought is maybe twofold: having the one-on-one session, but then also maybe bringing people together as a group so that people can validate each other as well. And leaders might say, “It's too expensive. I don't have time for that.” But I think the opposite is actually true. Mark, what are your thoughts?
Mark:
It also seems like there's these questions of identity. I think people in leadership feel like it's their job to know what to do. And I think that paradigm kind of breaks down when we live in such a disrupted world where it's really hard for anyone to know what to do. And I think it also breaks down, from a millennial's perspective, because the general sense that I get from most millennials is that they're pretty clear that, “I don't know what to do.” And actually my true authority in that room might actually begin with me saying, “What do you think that we should do here?” If I'm willing and confident enough to ask that question that's when my organic authority begins. And then the collaboration begins to come up with the best solution.
And I think that when you look at the challenge of returning to work in the midst of the new normal or just kind of the disruptive world in which we live, no one really knows what to do. And so the importance is actually to be awake and alive to the opportunities and the challenges that are before us and to be open to new whys and to new what's and the new hows to really address those needs. And I think that, that really depends upon that kind of empathetic engagement with your entire team so that you can see the things which aren't already in your spreadsheet and make those new products and solutions that will really solve for the questions that are just now being formulated. So I think it's a beautiful rich time. And oftentimes, it is these moments where we're really struggling with what has been the established answers that we begin to open up to new answers. And I hope that, that produces these kinds of vulnerable and interesting and creative conversations across generations and across cultures.
Stephen:
I’ve got to say that is absolutely so perfect. And there's two quotes that, that made me think of. And the first is: The best captains see their ship through the eyes of their crew. And so through my executive coaching, one very common theme is it's lonely at the top. And I think that leaders isolate themselves because they have a fear that they have to have all the answers, which I think is not the case. I think that you need to engage your organization and collect as much information as you can. And the other quote that it made me think of is the saying: If you want to go fast, go alone; and if you want to go far, go together. And I think that from an organizational standpoint, if you want your organization to have longevity and to be successful, you really need to work as one unit. And the way you do that is through engaging people. And whether that's coaching with LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY®, you really need to start working with individuals. And then as Jacquie was saying, then bringing them back together so that you can start having this cohesive unit and you can really start leveling—or leveraging group genius.
Mark:
Awesome. I'm going to write those quotes down and use them, and hopefully remember to credit you. Those are great.
Jacquie:
That's funny, Stephen. Because I have to tell you on most of our podcasts, Mark is the one that busts out the quotes. So you just changed the dynamic, you disruptor—you millennial, you.
Stephen:
Yes. It was a real crisscross. Awesome
Mark:
Well thanks for spending this time with us and sharing your insights. And I look forward to continuing the conversation.
Stephen:
Yes. It was a real pleasure for me. This is really fun. And so a little bit of background information for our listeners. I met Mark at the EPIC Conference, which is actually happening this coming week—I don't know when this is going to air—and I really hit it off with Mark. I thought he was an interesting cool guy. And then I had the opportunity to go run a LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® training with Mark in L.A. It's great to be reconnecting. Obviously, I'd rather be sitting across the table from you, but it's still great to hear your thoughts and ideas. And yes, this has just been a real pleasure.
Mark:
Well, likewise. And for people who would like to connect with you in the future, what's the best place for people to find you and connect with you?
Stephen:
I am on LinkedIn, and I'm sure my name will be spelled in the synopsis for the podcast. Or you can email me at stephenjames@strategicplay.com.
Mark:
Wonderful. Thanks again.
Jacquie:
Thanks, Stephen. It was really fun chatting. Always great to see an interesting model in here, an amazing story. So thank you so much for that.
Stephen:
Absolutely
[ Conclusion ]
Mark:
That was such a fun conversation. I always enjoy Stephen's thoughtfulness and empathy and just true creative insight. I really loved how he brought forward the importance of really diving into why if you tell someone to do something and they say, “Why?” that isn't a challenge of your authority as a leader. It's actually an opportunity to clarify and embolden your vision within an organization. That was my takeaway from it. How about you Jacquie?
Jacquie:
Yes. There were so many things there that we talked about. I think for me, the biggest reminder is how precious of a resource time is. And we all have the exact same amount of time every day and it's how we use that time. And so thinking about talking to the people that we work with and definitely if we're leaders talking to our people, if we have the ability to talk to our team, just how important it is to stop, take time, have a real conversation where we're listening generously so that we can really empathize with the person we're listening to and learn from them. For me, I think that was really something that he stressed, and it's something—it's a good reminder for me. I have people on my team that I'm sure they probably think I'm rushing around and I don't spend enough time with them. So I think that was a really good message. And just the fact that it's so inexpensive. I mean, it costs you nothing to sit down and have a real conversation. So that was a great takeaway for me.
Mark:
I love that. Speaking of continuing the conversation, would you like to set up the challenge for our listeners for this podcast?
Jacquie:
Sure. The challenge that we gave Stephen would probably be a good challenge for others. And the challenge that we gave him is: What do you need so that you can do your best work? So if people want to build a model that perhaps explains what they need. And just think about yourself. Don't think about others. Just think about you. Just take that time to reflect and think what is it that I need so that I can reach my goals or feel really happy and satisfied with what I'm doing? And see if you can build a model that tells that story. If you are interested in sharing this story with us, we would love to hear it. So if you're in our community site, just go ahead and under this link take a photo, post it, tell us your story. If you're not in our community and you're in the wider community and you're just listening in on this podcast but you'd like to join the conversation, take a picture and email it with your story to hello@strategicplay.com. And we will do our darndest to share that story back out. Or if you prefer just for us to read it and hear it that's okay too. But we would love to hear from you. This is this whole podcast, and everything we're doing is all about connecting. We’d like to connect with you and we'd like to hear your story as well.
Mark:
Terrific. Thank you once again for another inspiring conversation, Jacquie.
Jacquie:
Thank you, Mark. It's always fun to hang out. We've got some more interesting people that are waiting in the wings, so I'm looking forward to our next conversation.
Mark:
Can't wait.
Jacquie:
Bye for now.
Mark:
Bye-Bye.
[ Outtakes ]
Jacquie:
You just changed the dynamic. You disruptor—you millennial, you.
Stephen:
Yes, it was a real crisscross.