Podcast Guest: Leo Chan
Leo is the founder of Abound Innovation. Their mission is to unleash the power + joy of innovation & creativity for all. Leo brings 20+ years of experience to the world of innovation and creativity. He’s the former Senior Innovation Lead at Chick-fil-A and former innovator at State Farm Insurance.
Leo was the catalyst for a thriving culture of innovation at Chick-fil-A. Leo redesigned Hatch, Chick-fil-A's 30,000 sq ft. Innovation Center, transforming it into an epicenter for innovation. He developed, trained and mentored Chick-fil-A innovators. He also designed and created innovation events attended by 1000+ employees.
Leo has delivered keynotes and workshops on innovation at many conferences, including: the Front End of Innovation, CreativeMornings, National Restaurant Association, CX Talks, MRMW North America, the Governor’s Office of Student Achievement and the Creative Problem Solving Institute. He'll also be presenting at FEI 2021, Story and the IAF Global Summit.
He’s a formally trained graphic designer, a named inventor on 41 US patents, insatiably curious and a lifelong learner.
Transcript
Welcome to the Strategic Play Podcast. Unlock Your creativity, expand your mind, and have good clean fun with Strategic Play founder and LEGO ® Serious Play® Master Trainer, Jacquie Lloyd Smith, and creative force and curious mind, Mark Millhone.
Mark:
Hello, Jacquie.
Jacquie:
Hello, Mark. How are you today?
Mark:
I am excellent. So today in the podcast, we're going to look at a question that so many organizations have asked, but much fewer really answer. How do you build an organization that fosters creativity and innovation, and what are the key components that really drive a creative culture?
Jacquie:
Innovation in many ways becomes a buzzword because it's attached to money. A lot of organizations will say, and governments will say, that we're really focusing on innovation and innovation is the way for the future. And you just seem to hear it a lot, kind of bumper stickers. But I don't know that people really know how to do innovation. Like what does it actually look like? What is the mindset that's needed? And Leo Chan, our guest today, is really an expert in doing that. He's worked in a number of organizations where he's gone in and really helped to create a culture of innovation.
Mark: He's the founder of Abound Innovation. Their mission is to unleash the power and joy of innovation and creativity for all. He brings 20 plus years of experience to the world of innovation and creativity. He was the former senior innovation lead at Chick-fil-A and a former innovator at State Farm Insurance. He was the catalyst for a thriving culture of innovation at Chick-fil-A. He designed Hatch Chick-fil-A's 30,000 square foot innovation center and transformed it into an epicenter for innovation. And Leo has delivered keynotes and workshops on innovation at many conferences, including Front End of Innovation, Creative Mornings, and the Creative Problem Solving Institute conference.
Jacquie:
And I think we need to also add that he is a LEGO® SERIOUS PLAY® facilitator. LEGO Serious Play, it's a communication tool. It's a problem solving tool. It is a way to give your brain a hand so that you can think at a deeper level.
Mark:
in this case, it really comes forward with some really interesting answers to the challenge that so many companies really wrestle with. How do they actually do innovation? How do they create that culture so that they can reap the benefits for their communities and their customers. So let's dig into the conversation.
Jacquie:
Alright , let's go.
[ Interview ]
Mark:
Leo Chan, welcome to the podcast.
Leo:
Thanks very much. I'm glad to be here.
Jacquie:
This is a podcast about play, and specifically LEGO Serious Play is the focus. We asked our guest to build a model. And the model that we asked Leo to build for us was something that represents an organization that fosters ideation and innovation. Leo, you built quite an interesting model.
Mark:
I will give a description just to orient listeners. For those of you who would like to have beautiful, full-color multi-angle pictures, thank you Leo, those will be available to you in the podcast notes. What we're looking at now, it's something that reminds me of an oil drilling platform. The base of that platform are these wonderful translucent blue blocks. There's also plants and flowers on that line as well. There's a person with a green flag. There's a platform that's got a smile on it. There's a person that looks like they're prepared to take a leap from that on one side, with kind of a bungee cord connecting them. We'll go into more detail as we reflect on this. Take it away, Jacquie.
Jacquie:
So when you look at the model, where are you in this scenario? Let's start there. Where did you put yourself?
Leo:
Well actually, I didn't put myself in the model. But if I had to choose a point, actually I would be the person in red carrying the flag.
Jacquie:
Do you want to tell us a little bit about that person and what's happening?
Leo:
Yes. So this slide represents permissions. When I think about innovation and I think about ideation, I think that first of all, you need a culture that allows it, right? And they're kind of looking at the person that's the blue on top of that pillar. And they're just being like, “Hey, I'm here for you.” So I have them leaning back so they can kind of look at them and be like, “I know you're about to jump off a ledge. I got your back.” And so I see myself as someone that supports, new ideas, new thoughts, new people who are trying to jump off the cliff with new ideas, and being like, “Hey, I got you. It's okay to explore. It's okay. I got your back. Let me support you in a way that allows you to have permission to that exploration. “
Jacquie:
Alright , great. Keep going, tell us a little bit more about the model.
Leo:
I have two flowers and like a little bush around the model. And to me that really represents that ideas can come from anywhere, as long as you have a supportive environment. You want to be able to allow ideas and innovation to come from all parts of the organization. So whether it's top-down like the CEO versus the new staff member that just joined your organization to the intern. Good ideas can come from any part of the organization. So that’s what that represents.
Jacquie:
Alright . And then maybe—there's two gears on a black pole.
Leo:
Yes. So when you asked about sort of qualities, that was—to me that was representing time. We have to give permission, but then we also need time for the gears to spin because we can't just expect gold and ideas to just come from nowhere. So it is a process in which it takes an amount of time. And so there was a little gear, which means sometimes it takes a little bit of time. Or there's a big gear, which means sometimes it takes a lot of time. And so giving the permission, but then also the time and space for these ideas to flourish is extremely important to me.
Jacquie:
Alright . Okay. And then if we were to go a little bit further along on the path, there is some yellow scaffolding with a ladder. Yes. Tell me about that part.
Leo:
Yes. So that that represents—a lot of times when people have really bold ideas, it may seem like it's really out there. So they might actually have to climb up a hill or a scaffold or something to get up there. And it looks kind of unstable because that's, to me, that's the nature of it. When you share an idea with somebody you're going out on a limb, literally. Right? And so the guy on the edge there, he's kind of leaning outward and almost looks like he can fall down, which is why he also has the crash helmet, Jacquie, to represent that there is a part of people sharing their ideas. There's courage involved. And it requires, again, if you have that permission, it requires some sort of safety and it requires boldness. So not everybody is going to climb up that yellow scaffolding piece and go out there. But if you want people to have bold ideas, you need to give them the permission to do so.
Jacquie:
Alright. Okay, great. And so does that rope that's coming down, is that part of that whole idea of giving people support or helping them to climb?
Leo:
Yes. It’s meant so that he's just not stuck there by himself. So there's always a way back to the organization. There's a way back in. So if you're pushing it out or you might feel isolated, there’s always a way back to the organization. There's always a support structure that will enable them to come back down. Because a lot of times there might be fear around if this idea is too out there, well, how will people look at me? Or you might just feel so isolated and so him saying, “Hey, we want you to explore that and you can get back down to us after you've gone wide and you’ve really explored and went off the limb.”
Jacquie:
Right. Right, okay. On the very top of the platform that the guy, the crash helmet is standing on, there is a little yellow brick that has a smile on it. I'm curious, what that’s about.
Leo:
It represents fun and playfulness. So I think it's important, especially in ideation, to enjoy the process. I think it's necessary in innovation too. I think it’s exciting to be able to think of the future and being able to craft the future for yourself or for your organization. As I always like to remind people, you get to be here. you get to dream the future. And so to me, innovation and ideation is like the funnest thing ever. I wanted something with a face that had a smile on it. So that's why it's up there.
Jacquie:
Right. Okay. And then further along sort of behind the ideator, we'll call him. There is like a big blue, one of the globes that you've put together. And can you tell us with the transparent globe, what did that represent?
Leo:
Yes. So that globe, and there’s actually a yellow piece on an orange brick near the window. Those to me represent ideas. Good ideas sometimes require a lot of exploration, and sometimes it takes a lot of work to find those ideas. And I do really believe that quantity leads to quality. And so those represent those ideas that are really out there. It’s taken a journey to get there. So that's why they're both kind of on these little—they're on the edge of the platforms that they're sitting on.
Jacquie:
Alright. My goodness, there’s so many gold nuggets in this model. I love it. Okay, let's go down below. Did you talk about the window and those transparent blocks?
Leo:
I have not. So the transparent blocks, they also represent a stepping stone. So beside the blue blocks, there's a green block. So we need to enable people to explore their dreams and the ideas. And we need to build structures in ways that enable them to get there. So that’s kind of what that represents. And then the window is more from an organizational lens that we have to be open to all ideas. So again, to me, in a healthy organization ideas can come from anywhere. But we have to ensure that we promote that. So we have to be open-minded, right? New ideas may mean that we have to change how we're working, change how we're thinking about things. And so it's really important to be open-minded, which is why the window is open.
Jacquie:
Alright. Okay. And then on the opposite side, I can: see that there is a propeller and a small white—I’m wondering if that white block has an eye on it?
Leo:
It does.
Jacquie:
So can you tell me about that part?
Leo:
Yes. So it's actually sitting on two pink pieces and two red pieces, and that to me is a heart. And so that's kind of the foundation, but I feel like an attribute that we need to have is to care about each other and to have that support. So that's what that brick represents. So I think when you have the support and the care that enables ideas to be accelerated and propelled forward. And so the eye, the white piece, represents a person. So it propels people forward.
Jacquie:
Oh, okay. Alright. I know when we have talked quite a bit about that whole idea of the support and having your heart and not just giving it lip service, I guess. Okay. How about the green piece that comes off—it’s kind of it's at the bottom and it's from a connectors kit, and it's sort of like an elbow green piece with holes in it. What was that representing?
Leo:
This represents that ideas can all look different. It might not be a block. It might be a different shape. It could be up there on that scaffold, that blue piece or that yellow piece. But ideas can look different from what we may expect, but we want to be making sure that we're open to it.
Jacquie:
Okay. Alright. Have I missed anything? Is there anything else that we haven't talked about?
Leo:
Well I guess the structure of the base, you'll probably see that there's a lot of different angles and different ways into it. And so that's more of a subtle notion again of ideas can come can from anywhere and they should come from everywhere. So we want to be able to make sure that they can come into the organization from any place.
Jacquie:
Okay. Great. Alright. So I’ve just been jotting down some notes as you were telling me your story, and there is an awful lot of information here. So I'm just going to see if I can capture it. So growth and permission and time and support for bold ideas. And then you talked about people needing to have courage, but that the organization needs to have a way for them to get back if they go out on a limb, so there's no isolation. And then the whole process should be fun and there should be playfulness. And then that whole idea about the transparent globe representing the expansion and exploration. It’s hard work to get to ideas. And then you talked about quality over quantity, which I think is so interesting because a lot of people want quality and they don't realize you've got to go for quantity first.
Leo:
Yes. Quantity leads to quality.
Jacquie:
Great that you wove that in. And then a couple of ideas, stepping stones to exploring ideas that people need the time to kind of go through a process. I then have the window with the open-mindedness that ideas we may have to change your mind. And then that heart is a foundation and caring about people in order to be able to get there. And then supporting people and the idea that the whole idea that good ideas can come from anywhere. You don't know where they're going to come from. I think those were the main points. Did I miss anything?
Leo:
No. I think you nailed it on the head. One insight I forgot to mention with the open window. I think it's important for ourselves to also have an open mind or open window to the ideas that come from us because we can actually self-sensor and judge ideas, maybe prematurely. And so we also need to have an open window into ourself as well.
Jacquie:
And that's a really good insight because I think that even people that are professionals at doing creative problem solving, ideation, brainstorming, whatever you want to call it, sometimes can also be guilty of converging too soon. So it's a real skill set that needs practice.
Leo:
Yes. Absolutely.
Jacquie:
Alright. Great. Mark, any comments on this intricate piece of artwork that is an artifact that tells such a great story?
Mark:
It's just so fascinating. And one thing which I love about exploring ideas in this way is that it gives physical expression to these concepts. And I like that as a contrast because when I think about this, I can't think of any organization that will say that we think ideation is a bad idea or we think that innovation—we don't want any more of that, at least in terms of how they would put words to that question. But I think that part of what I see you drawing here is the ways in which the actual structure of the organization and the experience of the organization needs to tangibly support that creativity and innovation.
I guess what that kind of leads me to as a question is, in what ways do organizations perhaps unintentionally create cultures that aren't really supportive to creativity and innovation, even if they say that, that's what they are about. What are sort of common mistakes or ways in which they fail to really create that kind of environment, the cues that people pick up on?
Leo:
Yes. I think that there could be actually quite a number of those. The first one that's coming to my mind is having employees overworked. I'm sure that's a common problem in a lot of organizations, but when people are overworked they don't have time or bandwidth or margin to actually think outside the box and think creatively.
And something that I've always admired from Google is I've heard of this concept called 20% time. And so they allowed all their staff to have 20% of the work week on these set aside or pet projects. So they had margin and bandwidth to explore things that they should believe should be explored.
And out of this 20% time from Google came out like Google maps and AdSense and Gmail.
So it's pretty interesting to have a structure that would enable people to have margin to think. Because if we don't, then we'll never be able to craft new features and innovate and brainstorm because we're too busy.
Jacquie:
I think the other thing that often organizations will do is reward the wrong thing. Why would people go out on their limb, like your guy in the blue helmet, and come up with a new idea when they know they're only going to get rewarded for, let's say, things that have been successful in the past. And so then you have to ask, within the organizational culture, how are we supporting and rewarding people that they're taking risks and that are not playing it safe because? Because if we're just rewarding people that play it safe, then the organization as a whole will play it safe. And then that's the culture that we got.
Leo:
Yes. And Jacquie, I think that's really interesting because it makes me think about two things. I think it’s one of the underpinnings for an innovative culture is what I call psychological safety. So do people feel equipped or comfortable going out on a limb. And if that's not established, like you're saying, the only ideas that are ever pitched forward will always be safe ones because everyone just wants to succeed. So psychological safety, to me, is so foundational for innovation to even happen.
And the other thing that you said reminded me of my manager at State Farm when I was innovating there. And he always said to me, “We want ideas to reach their logical conclusion.” And logical conclusion did not mean that it had to go to market. It just meant that, did we explore it? Was there a market fit? Did we test it out? Did we try all the things we could with it? And if so, that means it goes forward, amazing. If it means it’s sunsetted, that’s fine. And if we stop that’s okay too. And sometimes it's just because the market or the timing isn't right for an idea. So that’s always stuck with me because it just needs to reach its logical conclusion. And logical conclusion does not mean it goes to market and you’re making millions of dollars.
Jacquie:
Right. And I think that you touched on another point here, Leo, which is the importance of leadership. You talked about somebody that you worked with at State Farm that embedded that idea in your mind. And then you just shared that with all of us, which I think is such a good point because people will often say, “Well, we want to spend time on coming up with new ideas and ideating, but we don't want to waste time.” And so in when their mind what they're meaning is we're willing to explore ideas but only the good ones. And we’re willing to take time to really invest in those ideas, but there better be an ROI.
And so I think that then is a limiting factor when people consider whether they're going to share an idea or not. Because the fact of the matter is we don't know what the logical conclusion of an idea will be.
Leo:
That’s right. Yes.
Jacquie:
I mean, wouldn't it be great if we all knew ahead of time?
Leo:
That'd be beautiful, right? Let’s just spend the time on the good ones.
Jacquie:
That's right. We only put money behind those ones. Yes.
Leo:
Actually what's interesting is prior to being an innovation person, I worked in—I was a graphic designer. And my best example of quantity leads to quality was when I had a design project and we were asked to design—it was supposed to be a typographic poster of a day in our life that was of some meaning to us. And you were only allowed to use typography, so no images, no shapes, any of those things. It was just letters. And I did it as, my design was on a car accident I was in, and it impacted me a lot. But basically, I drew literally 200 thumbnails for this project. A lot of them, I’m telling you of 199 were terrible and I was so frustrated doing it, but it led to something that I was really, really happy with. And I literally did draw 200 of these. So it literally was quantity leading to the quality. But it wasn’t fun and I was banging my head against the wall, like oh these are such bad ideas. But had I not gone through that process, I never would have gotten to that number 200 and getting the one that I really liked and something that I could actually be proud of sharing it with my professor.
Jacquie:
That's interesting. Dean Kamen, who is the inventor of the Segway, he said that when it comes to innovation it's always darkest before the dawn. So inside those moments where you're like, we are not coming up with any new ideas, we kind of feel like we’re done, and then all of a sudden you have a breakthrough. But I think it's pushing through, so it’s also tenacity. And the other thing about it as well is that we also have to think to ourselves, even if we spend all that time on an idea and it ends up not going to market or not going anywhere, there's all kinds of golden nuggets that we can glean along the way that we can learn from. So the process itself is never a waste of time.
Mark:
One thing which we've talked about in the past on other podcasts is the difference between creativity and innovation. Innovation is kind of applied creativity. And part of what's really necessary is just that open creative stage where you're really giving space for things that may appear useless at first go. A question is, just in terms of getting organizations to look at this not just as a nice to have but it really is a need to have. Why is it so important that organizations really create this kind of culture?
Leo:
I mean, I'm biased. I love innovation and creativity. It's important for a couple of reasons. And the first one, I think any organization would see this now in this COVID world that we're in, but are we truly ready for disruption? And disruption can mean a competitor pops out of nowhere and something amazing. It could be a global pandemic, but we never know what may happen in the future. And if we're always doing the same things, are we really ready? So I think innovation allows us the possibility of kind of crafting your own future, right. To determine what it could be like and it gives you a path forward. So I think that's probably reason number one of why it's so important.
But number two, I personally believe that there's untapped potential in every single organization. That there's people with these incredible ideas and incredible thoughts, but there may not be a way for them to express it. And I feel that innovation is a platform that allows that those ideas to be expressed. And I'll give you a nice example. So I have a friend who was a former VP of Innovation at UPS, and prior to that he was the innovation VP at SunTrust Bank in Atlanta. When he joined the organization, he told me that he ran a hackathon. Hackathons are these opportunities where you can—the entire company can create ideas and those ideas can actually get green-lighted if they're successful and possibly go to market.
And so one of the ideas that won at the hackathon that year, was from these two individuals. And it ended up that their idea impacted tens of thousands of customers within its first week of launch, which is crazy, right? And so he was like, “This is amazing! How did you two come up with this idea?”
And they said to him, “We've been sitting on this idea for 20 years. And before you came along, we didn't have this opportunity, like a hackathon, to be able to present our ideas and have them really scale into the organization.” And so it was wonderful what he did there. He created a method which ideas could get spotlighted and highlighted and green-lighted.
And so that's a story in which I feel like exists in all organizations, where there's people with these amazing ideas but they might not have a path forward. Maybe there's no direct line to upper management or whatever it is. And so I feel like innovation unleashes the untapped potential of the employees in organizations.
Mark:
And there's also a lot of research that looks at the outsize rewards that are given to those who create a different product, not just a better version of a product which has been there but something which is different that creates a new category. Think about Uber or Apple, different things where there wasn't that product before.
Jacquie:
Interesting. I think about the untapped potential within an organization. Every organization being full of people that have got amazing ideas but have not brought them forward or haven't even said them out loud. How have you used LEGO ® Serious Play® in order to tackle this or to give a platform for more people to speak or to tell their story or to ideate? Have you used it in that way?
Leo:
I've used it a few times for ideation, Jacquie. I've used it more for team forming in group forming, in terms of strength building and those types of things. Why I love LEGO ® Serious Play® is I think it gives everybody a voice. It allows everyone's perspective to be heard.
Jacquie:
I think probably the three of us could be categorized as extroverts. I'm not totally sure, but my gut feeling is that we're not shy people. But I do think that sometimes in organizations that the typical brainstorming with Post-it Notes or kind of shouting things out, for the introverts don't work as well. And I think this is where LEGO ® Serious Play® could be a very powerful tool. When people are given a challenge, are able to take time, quiet time, maybe with music playing, to think about it, to build, to construct a story in their mind and then have the space. Because in LEGO ® Serious Play®, one of the rules is that we're going to listen generously.
Leo:
Actually Jacquie, this may surprise you. But I actually am introverted, according to the Myers-Briggs test, when I did it way back. I was all I zero E.
Jacquie:
Wow. That is so interesting.
Leo:
So I in fact like creating the ideas, but I'm terrified to share them. So LEGO ® Serious Play® makes it easier because I already know the story.
Jacquie:
So last question that I have then for you, Leo, is we’ve talked about why we feel creating a culture of innovation is so important. What’s the risk? What do you think the risk is of organizations? Because there’s lots of them, I mean I work with them all the time, that really don't want to spend time on this. They prefer for the consultant to come in and tell them what to do. They don't necessarily want to go through this process of hearing from everybody and having these creativity sessions. And then yes, they don't necessarily perhaps move forward. But what the heck? They’re making money so why should they change? What do you think the risk is for those organizations that don't consider this idea of creating a culture of innovation?
Leo:
Yes. I'm thinking of two things right now. I think, one, you could potentially lose really talented individuals in your workforce. So if they don't feel like they can contribute and innovate and bring new thought to the organization, they have a lot of choices in the world to go to that will support that, right? And innovation and creativity are among the top 10 future skills that people should have, according to the World Economic Forum. So if these are part of them and they're wanting to explore and express it, they'll probably move to another organization. And I think the second part is that your company may lose its relevancy, right? Because our world is changing so fast all the time, right? There's always new things coming up, new technology, new, new customer service models, all types of things. And if we don't know how to pivot and adjust ourselves then we quickly become irrelevant. So I think those are the possible things.
So I think if you really want to make a difference in your organization, innovation is so critical because I feel like it's such an empowerment to your organization to your employees. I feel like that's why he might tag line for Abound Innovation is to unleash the power of joy and innovation and creativity. Because I—in the work that I did with Chick-fil-A, I've seen innovation just light people up, get them passionate and excited about what they're doing and have this energy and momentum that's built around, like, let's craft a new future. Let's create new things, and really just see people come to life with it. So I’d love to see that for all organizations.
Jacquie:
Okay. So what would—is there something that you—you’ve got people’s ears right now. Is there anything you could suggest to people that if they’re within an organization and maybe they're not a leader or maybe they are a leader, is there anything that they could start doing? Something simple that would help them start moving toward creating this kind of a culture?
Leo:
Yes. That's a great question. My first thought is for you to model the change that you want. And I would say that the psychological safety, like I mentioned before, is that first piece. So I really feel like when sharing ideas is a scary, terrifying thing for many people, and idea is the genesis of all innovation and creativity, right? We need to have the ideas and to share them and explore them before we can do anything. So I think everybody can make a choice to enable themselves to be safe for other people to share ideas with. So Jacquie, if you were like to come to me and say, “Hey, Leo. I have this new idea .” I'm not going to be like, “Jacquie, I don't have time for you. Jacquie, I'm not interested. Jacquie, we’ve done that before. Jacquie, that’s just not going to work because of all these things.” I'll lean into you and be like, “What do you have? Like, let's talk about it.”
And on top of what I like to call a “yes and” mindset, where you're basically aligned in the space to talk about it but then also to help them to contribute or giving them new ideas or helping them move that idea forward. So I think anybody can do that easily. I think psychological safety is such a great thing because when you see it modeled to yourself, you’re like, I want to be safe for others so that they feel the same thing that I'm feeling.
Jacquie:
Oh, wow. So that’s really kind of a simple challenge then. Each and every person, when people come to you with something they’ve been thinking about to sort of explore it first, before shooting it down or playing the devil's advocate.
Mark:
I think it's also interesting, this notion of psychological safety and then also looking at kind of like the truth of it. I mean, what I love about what you're saying is that anybody at any level of an organization can empower themselves to offer an idea. And that isn't necessarily easy, but even if I'm not a management person, I could say well, I have an idea for how we might reorganize this or change this.
And something which I try to reinforce is that we're so wired to seek out belonging and that sort of psychological safety within the tribe as we understand it. But what you've brought forward for me is that there's a larger tribe out there of people who are embracing of creativity, people who are living in a disrupted world. And those true members of your tribe, maybe within your organization, or they may be beyond the organization. And to bring forward new ideas, to offer them and to see how they are received. Not necessarily did they run with all of them or say thank you for every single one of them, but was their openness to those ideas. Were ideas brought to their, as you say, logical conclusion.
And I think if you're in an organization where that happens, then I think you've got a sense of real safety because that says that this is an organization that's open to grow and change. If they're not open to it, then that would be something to know right away. Because that may actually tell us something important about how nimble they're going to be, how well they're going to be able to adjust to dynamically changing environments.
So I think even if you don't necessarily see the invitation, if you can create the invitation for yourself you may be rewarded. And it may be within the organization that you're in or you may be rewarded with insight that, that's the change that you should look at making
Leo:
Yes. I wholeheartedly agree. I think that you can model the change that you want by being that person first for somebody else. And I saw it at Chick-fil-A. I think what I was able to do was model psychological safety to a lot of the—we have a group called innovation coaches who are these innovation ambassadors. And so I hope that I did that, I believe I did, where they felt safe to share ideas, to explore things with me, and I'd be that person that would be their cheerleader and encourage them. And it didn't mean that I'd be green-lighting everything, but they knew that they could bring their thoughts to me.
And I wouldn't be like, “Well, no. I don't have time for that,” or, “That's not going to work because of these things.” I'm like, “Let's think about it.” And to Jacquie’s point earlier, we don't know what type of ideas are. We have to give them the exploration that they deserve, the time thing. Everything deserves some time in the sun, right? Every idea deserves some time in the sun. Are we going to enable people to have that time? And so going back to the model I built, that's why that blue guy is up there. Are we going to give people the safety so that they can climb the ladder and then know, hey, if it didn't work out, that's okay. You can come back down. I got your back. I support you. I'm here to help you grow and that type of thing.
Jacquie:
Yes. That's great. And I think that as organizations or leaders might be listening to this podcast and maybe thinking about what they can do within their organization, I think modeling the way. And thinking about just sort of being that person and the way that you show up, because there's a million opportunities for coaching conversations in the course of, let’s say, the average work week. And it’s hard. It's hard to, when you're in a—and I think you also said being overworked. When you’re overworked and under pressure, it’s always easier to say no.
Leo:
Yes. That's right.
Jacquie:
No, I'm busy. But I think that it's a “yes and” conversation of when we can start having that. And maybe it means that we need to set a certain amount of time, because we don't want ideation just to become a distraction, but we want it to be something that can be incorporated within the system. And I always think about making sure that you have a process that helps. And I think that you said it really well, Leo, at the beginning, to help each idea come to its successful conclusion, whatever that might be. But I do think that we're—that organizations are leaving money on the table by not opening themselves to the infinite amount of possibilities that they have. Because in most organizations, the greatest line item on their budget is their staff.
And so if we’re wasting the potential of our employees because we are not giving them that opportunity, I think this is where we start to not have those breakthrough moments. Like the ones that you’ve talked about, Mark, that are even in a different category completely that really do take organizations to a completely new level. Or new startups that didn’t even exist a year ago. And if you think about it, there’s organizations right now that have not even hit the market that probably within two years, will have some kind of a product or service that the rest of us can't live without. And we didn’t even know about them. So it’s that hidden potential that I think is there that is untapped. And I think you've done a great job walking us through your model and explaining what you think is a really a big part of mindset as well that goes into creating that culture.
Mark:
Yes, I think you've done a great job of just looking at the structural pieces that need to be in place to allow for that kind of culture and openness to take that innovation, to take those creative ideas and make sure that the full potential of them is shared for customers, for the community that works together, and for our culture as a whole. The culture of psychological safety of openness to realizing that ideas can come from anywhere, looking at creating time for ideas to be built and a recognition that they will have to be built. And there's just so many great takeaways there for our listeners. And thank you so much for spending time with us to share them.
Leo:
Yes, absolutely. And that's what my company is about. I do have a workshop on psychological safety. It's dear to my heart. So a lot of this mindset and culture building is part of my business and what we do at Abound Innovation. So happy to share that and help out organizations, if there's a need for it.
Mark:
That's great. And if people do want to learn more about what you're up to, where can they find you, Leo?
Leo:
Yes. They can find me on LinkedIn. I’m at Leo Nelson Chan or they can just find me on my website, aboundinnovation.ca. But I tag myself in Abound Innovation on everything. So if you want to follow what we're up to, where we'll be presenting and those types of things, you can follow us there.
Mark:
Well, terrific. Thank you so much.
Jacquie:
I'm just going to add that Leo is also going to be doing some LEGO ® Serious Play® training in the future. So he has joined the Strategic Play team, which we're super excited about.
Leo:
Me too. Okay. Awesome. Thank you so much.
Jacquie:
Alrighty.
Leo:
Thanks, Mark. It was nice meeting you.
Mark:
Nice to meet you too. And we look forward to talking more in the future.
Leo:
Yes, absolutely. Okay, take care.
Jacquie:
Okay, bye.
Mark:
Such an interesting conversation. He really brings forward so many dimensions to the challenge and so many dimensions to the solution of how we create cultures which are more supportive of innovation and creativity. What really stood out for you, Jacquie, in the things that he shared?
Jacquie:
First of all, I was really quite impressed with this model because he managed to weave in so many different ideas that I thought that was kind of fun to see how he had processed that question that we asked. I think that one of the themes that came out of the model, and also in my work over and over again, is this idea of fear. I think that fear is so immobilizing in so many ways for individuals and overall for organizations. And that fear of failure or fear of embarrassment or fear of not having the right answer seems to be so woven into our culture in North America. I mean, we’re happy to tell people our ideas if we know that they're going to like them. But if we think our ideas are a little out there and it's too risky, then I think that we're most likely not to share them.
I really liked the way that Leo said that change can begin with us. That we ourselves could start to become more open and supportive to other people. That would be like the small step that we could take. So I think a really good challenge would be a personal reflection. And I would love to see people think about what they could do within their sphere of influence or wherever they are working, even in their own family, of what they could do that would be more supportive of people being able to have permission and to feel safe to come forward with an idea.
Mark:
Terrific. And if people are feeling brave, and I hope they are, and want to share that with us, where should they send it?
Jacquie:
Well, if you're listening to this podcast and you want to pick up the Lego bricks, that's exactly what we would love you to do. But you could also draw a picture or write a haiku, whatever moves you. But if you want to create something and send us an email to hello@strategicplay.com, we would love to hear from you. If you're listening to this podcast and you're inside our community forum, then you can simply post your picture and your reflection and we will respond.
Mark:
Terrific. Alrighty. Well, thank you so much for sharing all this with us and for another great conversation.
Jacquie:
Yes. Thank you so much, Mark. If you're listening and you're interested in the work that we're doing and the people that we're interviewing, make sure you stay tuned because more playful and creative people are in the lineup.
Mark:
Awesome.
Jacquie:
Bye for now.
Mark:
Bye for now.
Out takes
Jacquie:
I was just in a meeting this morning and someone was like, “I'm going to play the devil's advocate!” And I just wanted to say “No! Don't do it!”
Mark:
The devil is very well-represented. The devil does not need more help.